Phat Performance Parts: Cobra PowrPro Test
#21
09-27-2011, 06:59 PM
Here is the letter that was forwarded to me a couple of weeks ago. It has now also been posted on other forums. I do not have the name of the Cobra rep that wrote it, so I certainly hope that it is genuine.
---------------------
What follows is a pretty good overview of how this products work, and from this the following should be clear:
This unit does not have to measure air temp changes, altitude changes, load changes or the other bits of data that get tossed about in conversations. It’s concerned with the rate of acceleration and adjusting the air/fuel ratio to create the maximum power given the combination of products and environmental conditions.
It is not tuning to a preset air/fuel ratio. In fact, that air/fuel ratio read by the oxygen sensors is simply the downstream by product of the engine making the most power it can.
If a bike has oxygen sensors, we make use of those sensors to adjust cruise fuel. They are not engaged when the bike is under acceleration.
Make no mistake this is a very sophisticated product that takes fuel-injection tuning to an entirely new level.
In developing this product, we thought a truly intelligent system should be able to gather and analyze the information it needs to make adjustments as you ride with no extra equipment, no extra hassles. This was the goal of the PowrProFi2000 with CVT— Continuously Variable Tuning without the need for dynos.
You already own a highly accurate dyno—your engine’s crankshaft. We think of crankshafts as turning smoothly, but in fact when a cylinder fires, it accelerates the crankshaft slightly. Every engine has some kind of torsional shock absorberbetween crank and gearbox, which is there to accommodate this slight variation in crank speed. With the application of modern high-speed electronics, we can access this information and
time the rotation of the crank from one firing to the next, and analyze whether the next firing is slightly stronger or weaker than the previous one.
Now comes the clever part: using the measurement of how hard a cylinder accelerates the crankshaft as a way to correct fuel mixture. If the mixture is a bit lean and the CVT system adjusts it to be a bit richer at the next firing, more power will be produced and the piston will give the crank a slightly stronger kick. We can use this as a tool to move from whatever fuel mixture the engine is actually receiving,toward a more efficient mixture.
The next step is a way to time the rotations of the crank, so crank speed at one firing can be compared with crank speed at the next firing. Fortunately, bike manufacturers give us this info for free--as the time from the beginning of one fuel-injection squirt to the beginning of the next one, 720 crank degrees later. Yes, the engine’s other cylinder may be slowing the crank by being on its compression stroke, but all we need is comparative information.
We also need to experiment with fuel mixture, just as race tuners or EFI programmers do. If we make the mixture a little leaner and the next crank cycle takes a little bit longer than before, we know we¹re going the wrong way. This is just like what old time race tuners did by changing carburetor jets and then looking at the bike¹s quarter mile ET or lap time. However, in the case of the Fi2000 PowrPro, this process now occurs up to 80 times per second--it¹s literally Continuously VariableTuning.
The Fi2000 PowrPro conducts its fuel-mixture tuning by varying the mixture slightly. If the crank moves a tiny bit faster when the mixture leans out slightly, the PowrPro knows that¹s the right direction and the system leans the mixture again--or vice-versa. With a big twin cylinder engine turning
5000 rpm, one cylinder is giving us 42 of these opportunities to tune the fuel mixture every second. The result is that the Fi2000 PowrPro continuously and quickly drives fuel mixture to the value that gives best power. This process allows the system to adapt to any engine modifications you make. It¹s like going to the drag strip with a stopwatch and boxes of carburetor jets up to 80 times every second.
When this system was still in its initial planning stages, one option under consideration was to use this data to create a new conventional fuel map similar to the one programmed into the engine¹s stock EFI, and then to periodically update it. That turned out to be unnecessary because
Continuously Variable Tuning does the same job without the expense and complication of storing, updating and retrieving data to or from a fuel map.
CVT is a continuous mixture-correcting process, not a fixed set of values “in a can,” like that of the stock EFI system or previous EFI tuning systems. Instead, CVT operates continuously, detecting throttle movement that indicates significant acceleration, and there is a threshold below which it switches to one of two other modes. If the bike has an exhaust oxygen sensor, this data typically controls the mixture in steady cruise or during slow roll-ons, and the PowrPro system adjusts this to 14.2- to-1 air/fuel ratio, giving maximum-power operation. If the bike has no oxygen sensor, the system observes the range of variation of mixture over several cycles and sets the mixture to the rich end of that variation.
__________________
---------------------
What follows is a pretty good overview of how this products work, and from this the following should be clear:
This unit does not have to measure air temp changes, altitude changes, load changes or the other bits of data that get tossed about in conversations. It’s concerned with the rate of acceleration and adjusting the air/fuel ratio to create the maximum power given the combination of products and environmental conditions.
It is not tuning to a preset air/fuel ratio. In fact, that air/fuel ratio read by the oxygen sensors is simply the downstream by product of the engine making the most power it can.
If a bike has oxygen sensors, we make use of those sensors to adjust cruise fuel. They are not engaged when the bike is under acceleration.
Make no mistake this is a very sophisticated product that takes fuel-injection tuning to an entirely new level.
In developing this product, we thought a truly intelligent system should be able to gather and analyze the information it needs to make adjustments as you ride with no extra equipment, no extra hassles. This was the goal of the PowrProFi2000 with CVT— Continuously Variable Tuning without the need for dynos.
You already own a highly accurate dyno—your engine’s crankshaft. We think of crankshafts as turning smoothly, but in fact when a cylinder fires, it accelerates the crankshaft slightly. Every engine has some kind of torsional shock absorberbetween crank and gearbox, which is there to accommodate this slight variation in crank speed. With the application of modern high-speed electronics, we can access this information and
time the rotation of the crank from one firing to the next, and analyze whether the next firing is slightly stronger or weaker than the previous one.
Now comes the clever part: using the measurement of how hard a cylinder accelerates the crankshaft as a way to correct fuel mixture. If the mixture is a bit lean and the CVT system adjusts it to be a bit richer at the next firing, more power will be produced and the piston will give the crank a slightly stronger kick. We can use this as a tool to move from whatever fuel mixture the engine is actually receiving,toward a more efficient mixture.
The next step is a way to time the rotations of the crank, so crank speed at one firing can be compared with crank speed at the next firing. Fortunately, bike manufacturers give us this info for free--as the time from the beginning of one fuel-injection squirt to the beginning of the next one, 720 crank degrees later. Yes, the engine’s other cylinder may be slowing the crank by being on its compression stroke, but all we need is comparative information.
We also need to experiment with fuel mixture, just as race tuners or EFI programmers do. If we make the mixture a little leaner and the next crank cycle takes a little bit longer than before, we know we¹re going the wrong way. This is just like what old time race tuners did by changing carburetor jets and then looking at the bike¹s quarter mile ET or lap time. However, in the case of the Fi2000 PowrPro, this process now occurs up to 80 times per second--it¹s literally Continuously VariableTuning.
The Fi2000 PowrPro conducts its fuel-mixture tuning by varying the mixture slightly. If the crank moves a tiny bit faster when the mixture leans out slightly, the PowrPro knows that¹s the right direction and the system leans the mixture again--or vice-versa. With a big twin cylinder engine turning
5000 rpm, one cylinder is giving us 42 of these opportunities to tune the fuel mixture every second. The result is that the Fi2000 PowrPro continuously and quickly drives fuel mixture to the value that gives best power. This process allows the system to adapt to any engine modifications you make. It¹s like going to the drag strip with a stopwatch and boxes of carburetor jets up to 80 times every second.
When this system was still in its initial planning stages, one option under consideration was to use this data to create a new conventional fuel map similar to the one programmed into the engine¹s stock EFI, and then to periodically update it. That turned out to be unnecessary because
Continuously Variable Tuning does the same job without the expense and complication of storing, updating and retrieving data to or from a fuel map.
CVT is a continuous mixture-correcting process, not a fixed set of values “in a can,” like that of the stock EFI system or previous EFI tuning systems. Instead, CVT operates continuously, detecting throttle movement that indicates significant acceleration, and there is a threshold below which it switches to one of two other modes. If the bike has an exhaust oxygen sensor, this data typically controls the mixture in steady cruise or during slow roll-ons, and the PowrPro system adjusts this to 14.2- to-1 air/fuel ratio, giving maximum-power operation. If the bike has no oxygen sensor, the system observes the range of variation of mixture over several cycles and sets the mixture to the rich end of that variation.
__________________
#23
09-28-2011, 04:14 PM
Dude what are you talking about. All this drivel you posted means absolutely nothing and is nothing but marketing filler.
The only relevant sentence you posted out of all thy dribble was in the last paragraph where you acknowledge what I said is correct about the 14.2 afr target.
The only relevant sentence you posted out of all thy dribble was in the last paragraph where you acknowledge what I said is correct about the 14.2 afr target.
Last edited by neocontra; 01-10-2012 at 10:36 PM.
#24
09-28-2011, 08:31 PM
Well, the weather cooperated today, and it got to 86 degrees. I went on a 102 miles ride, and topped off the tank with 2.4 gallons, for 42.5 mpg. I stopped and checked my oil temps every 30 miles (I have the digital dip stick) and the warmest it registered was 222 degrees, which would be about 8 degrees cooler than it used to run at.
As I mentioned, I'm not one to believe marketing hype. I like to see actual results, and certainly have now seen them by doing this ongoing test. But now, one of the magazines finally tested the PowrPro. In the October issue of Bagger, they took a stock 2010 Roadglide, changed out the pipes, air cleaner, and added the PowrPro. You can read and see the results on line at:
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/1110_...m/viewall.html
The letter I posted above is part of the article.
For anyone interested in the PowrPro, Phat Performance, who sponsored this test, sells it at around $500.
As I mentioned, I'm not one to believe marketing hype. I like to see actual results, and certainly have now seen them by doing this ongoing test. But now, one of the magazines finally tested the PowrPro. In the October issue of Bagger, they took a stock 2010 Roadglide, changed out the pipes, air cleaner, and added the PowrPro. You can read and see the results on line at:
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/1110_...m/viewall.html
The letter I posted above is part of the article.
For anyone interested in the PowrPro, Phat Performance, who sponsored this test, sells it at around $500.
Last edited by MNPGRider; 09-29-2011 at 08:39 AM.
#26
09-29-2011, 08:35 AM
Dude what are you talking about. All this dribble you posted means absolutely nothing and is nothing but marketing filler.
The only relevant sentence you posted out of all thy dribble was in the last paragraph where you acknowledge what I said is correct about the 14.2 afr target.
The only relevant sentence you posted out of all thy dribble was in the last paragraph where you acknowledge what I said is correct about the 14.2 afr target.
Last edited by MNPGRider; 10-10-2011 at 09:35 PM.
#27
10-02-2011, 07:31 PM
I've now got 1000+ miles on since installing the PowrPro, and it continues to perform well. I'm especially pleased at the "roll-on" power available now at highway speed, when passing other vehicles. It is just such a smooth acceleration when I roll on the throttle.
My cruising mileage has now also improved. On a 400 mile ride today to Minneapolis and back, at speeds of 60 - 75 and driving on freeways part of the time, I averaged 44.6 mpg. Air temps were at 81 degrees, and the warmest my oil got was 220 degrees.
My cruising mileage has now also improved. On a 400 mile ride today to Minneapolis and back, at speeds of 60 - 75 and driving on freeways part of the time, I averaged 44.6 mpg. Air temps were at 81 degrees, and the warmest my oil got was 220 degrees.
#28
10-04-2011, 06:59 PM
As Phat Performance gave me such a good deal on the PowrPro by doing this test for them, I figured I could afford an hour of dyno time, if nothing else just for sh*ts and giggles. So my lady and I headed to our dealer a hundred miles away today to have them run an information dyno on our '06 Ultra. As a baseline, a stock '06 TC88 has 59 hp and 70 ft/lbs of torque, measured at the rear wheel.
My bike, as tested today, has a SE air cleaner with K&N filter and a Boyesen X-Wing, cheap modified stock Road King mufflers, Andrews 21G cams, and now the Cobra PowrPro.
Before doing anything else, I had the tech check the a/f ratio. After 1100 miles, the PowrPro had the a/f in cruise mode set at approximately 13.4 . (I don't know what a Stage One download on an '06 would have been, but with the PowrPro it's definitely running richer, and definitely cooler, which would also indicate a richer cruising mixture).
Now the interesting stuff started. The tech did five full throttle runs up to the rev limiter, which turned out to be 6150 rpm. The first run produced 73.28 hp, and 78.65 ft/lbs. Immediately doing a second run, the PowrPro added much more fuel (red line), and the results dropped to 72.24 hp and 77.61 ft/lbs. At this point the tech was wondering what the heck just happened.
The third, fourth, and fifth pull the PowrPro put kept adjusting the a/f, and the results were 72.81/78.11, 74.77/78.67, and 73.97/76.98 , respectively. The fourth and best results is the top line on the a/f graph.
It sure appears to me that the PowrPro is doing exactly as it is advertised. Not only does it calculate fuel needs instantly, but also stores the past results in its memory to calculate future similar throttle inputs, to give the best a/f mixture instantly. By the fourth and fifth pull, the a/f mixture at "cruise" had also dropped from 13.4 to 13.0 .
One of the things I "thought" I noticed previously, and now have proven to myself by looking at this dyno report. While in cruising mode (steady throttle), and then rolling on the throttle, I was pretty sure I could feel a small surge of power as the PowrPro came off cruise mode and into acceleration mode. It feels like I suddenly turn the throttle another quarter inch. Notice the a/f mix graph. When rolling on the throttle, there is a sudden richening of the a/f mix occurring between 2500 and 3000 rpm. I believe that is when the cruise mode is changing to the acceleration mode . This doesn't happen just at WOT, but happens any time you roll on the throttle more than "just a little."
My total gains over stock have been 15.77 hp, and 8.67 ft lbs of torque. I was disappointed at the lower torque figures. I was hoping to get up to 80. My tech recommended getting rid of the cheap modified mufflers. After doing this test for Phat Performance, I feel confident that I can change out the mufflers to something better and the PowrPro will adjust, just as advertised.
But look how the Andrews 21 cams put the torque right up there already by 2500 RPM, just as Joe Minton wrote about.
Attached is a thumbnail of the dyno sheet that should enlarge if you double click it.
My bike, as tested today, has a SE air cleaner with K&N filter and a Boyesen X-Wing, cheap modified stock Road King mufflers, Andrews 21G cams, and now the Cobra PowrPro.
Before doing anything else, I had the tech check the a/f ratio. After 1100 miles, the PowrPro had the a/f in cruise mode set at approximately 13.4 . (I don't know what a Stage One download on an '06 would have been, but with the PowrPro it's definitely running richer, and definitely cooler, which would also indicate a richer cruising mixture).
Now the interesting stuff started. The tech did five full throttle runs up to the rev limiter, which turned out to be 6150 rpm. The first run produced 73.28 hp, and 78.65 ft/lbs. Immediately doing a second run, the PowrPro added much more fuel (red line), and the results dropped to 72.24 hp and 77.61 ft/lbs. At this point the tech was wondering what the heck just happened.
The third, fourth, and fifth pull the PowrPro put kept adjusting the a/f, and the results were 72.81/78.11, 74.77/78.67, and 73.97/76.98 , respectively. The fourth and best results is the top line on the a/f graph.
It sure appears to me that the PowrPro is doing exactly as it is advertised. Not only does it calculate fuel needs instantly, but also stores the past results in its memory to calculate future similar throttle inputs, to give the best a/f mixture instantly. By the fourth and fifth pull, the a/f mixture at "cruise" had also dropped from 13.4 to 13.0 .
One of the things I "thought" I noticed previously, and now have proven to myself by looking at this dyno report. While in cruising mode (steady throttle), and then rolling on the throttle, I was pretty sure I could feel a small surge of power as the PowrPro came off cruise mode and into acceleration mode. It feels like I suddenly turn the throttle another quarter inch. Notice the a/f mix graph. When rolling on the throttle, there is a sudden richening of the a/f mix occurring between 2500 and 3000 rpm. I believe that is when the cruise mode is changing to the acceleration mode . This doesn't happen just at WOT, but happens any time you roll on the throttle more than "just a little."
My total gains over stock have been 15.77 hp, and 8.67 ft lbs of torque. I was disappointed at the lower torque figures. I was hoping to get up to 80. My tech recommended getting rid of the cheap modified mufflers. After doing this test for Phat Performance, I feel confident that I can change out the mufflers to something better and the PowrPro will adjust, just as advertised.
But look how the Andrews 21 cams put the torque right up there already by 2500 RPM, just as Joe Minton wrote about.
Attached is a thumbnail of the dyno sheet that should enlarge if you double click it.
Last edited by MNPGRider; 10-12-2011 at 06:48 PM.
#29
10-12-2011, 05:36 PM
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#30
10-12-2011, 05:58 PM
Well, I received a thank you email today, direct from Cobra, for doing this test.
Hello,
Wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write the product evaluation on our new tuner, we thought that you did a awesome job relaying the results to the end consumer. I wanted to see if we could get your blessing to add your test to our web site as an honest testimonial for a retail customer. Please let me know your thoughts on letting us do that..
Thanks again..
Dave Cullinan
Cobra USA
My reply:
Dear Mr. Cullinan,
I would like to thank you and Anthony from Phat Performance for the opportunity to have done this for you. I continue to “evaluate” my Ultra’s performance each time I ride, and I have not found one negative to report. The PowrPro responds instantly to throttle input, and my gas mileage, which was an initial concern when it first dropped substantially, no longer is a concern, as I’m now getting anywhere from 41- 44+, where previous to installing it I was at 42-46. Am I correct in assuming that was probably because the majority of my first few miles was at WOT ? ! The only problem I still have now is keeping my hand from rolling on the throttle to just enjoy the new found power. We’ve had a wonderful fall and I’ve been able to now put on over 1500 miles since installing the PowrPro.
I’ll continue to peridically update the thread on hdforums, although our riding season in Mn is rapidly coming to a close. I’m really looking forward to our next vacation, when we’ll be crossing the Rockies again next summer on the way to the west coast. I’m anxious to see how my bike runs next year, as compared to this year when we went to the Grand Canyon and back, and yes, I’ll report my findings at that time as well.
You certainly have my permission to use this test and my name in your marketing, as I certainly appreciate the ‘deal’ I received from your company to do this.
Most sincerely,
Alan Peterson
Marshall, Mn.
Hello,
Wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write the product evaluation on our new tuner, we thought that you did a awesome job relaying the results to the end consumer. I wanted to see if we could get your blessing to add your test to our web site as an honest testimonial for a retail customer. Please let me know your thoughts on letting us do that..
Thanks again..
Dave Cullinan
Cobra USA
My reply:
Dear Mr. Cullinan,
I would like to thank you and Anthony from Phat Performance for the opportunity to have done this for you. I continue to “evaluate” my Ultra’s performance each time I ride, and I have not found one negative to report. The PowrPro responds instantly to throttle input, and my gas mileage, which was an initial concern when it first dropped substantially, no longer is a concern, as I’m now getting anywhere from 41- 44+, where previous to installing it I was at 42-46. Am I correct in assuming that was probably because the majority of my first few miles was at WOT ? ! The only problem I still have now is keeping my hand from rolling on the throttle to just enjoy the new found power. We’ve had a wonderful fall and I’ve been able to now put on over 1500 miles since installing the PowrPro.
I’ll continue to peridically update the thread on hdforums, although our riding season in Mn is rapidly coming to a close. I’m really looking forward to our next vacation, when we’ll be crossing the Rockies again next summer on the way to the west coast. I’m anxious to see how my bike runs next year, as compared to this year when we went to the Grand Canyon and back, and yes, I’ll report my findings at that time as well.
You certainly have my permission to use this test and my name in your marketing, as I certainly appreciate the ‘deal’ I received from your company to do this.
Most sincerely,
Alan Peterson
Marshall, Mn.
Last edited by MNPGRider; 10-12-2011 at 07:12 PM.