oh, and thank you both for not taking any offense.
m

 

 

If the VE tables are set up correctly, the front and rear cylinders will read identically on air:fuel because they share the same air:fuel request table. It is not normal to have a 1 point variance as initially described.

Anyone who thinks it is normal is obviously not trained in proper EFI setup and tuning. Properly utilizing a dyno will allow the operator to optimize timing and air:fuel. just "liking" a timing map doesn't mean it is the correct timing map.

Bob - good points. I can't tell you how many people don't know what a properly running bike feels like. I'm sure you have seen it too.

 

Damn, you dyno advocates amaze me.

If I gave my bike to each one of you and told you want I wanted from my tune, I bet a year of paychecks that each one of you would return my bike claiming that its tuned just right, and that each of your tunes would be different.

I *get* that dynos are great tools but Jesus, why can't you get that it's not a tool I want to use right now and get off your freakin' high-horse soap boxes?

An engine doesn't need to be tuned dyno-perfect (which is absolutely subjective to begin witb) to be tuned well enough for most riders. And the idea that I need a dyno tuned bike to recognize a proper tune is ludicrous.

My bike will be just fine without a dyno tune! Why does EVERY post I make in this forum devolve into an effing scolding that I'm a fool somehow for not wanting to drop another several hundred dollars for a dyno session that may or may not yield a proper tune? Been there, done that with one of the most reputable tuners in my region! Who's to say the next "competant tuner" won't do the same?

I can and *will* tune it myself. It's not rocket science. It's old EFI tech, an alpha-N system for Pete's sake,If you want to help me learn along the way then thank you, sincerely, for your willingness to share your knowledge. If all you want to do is insult my intelligence by suggesting I'm somehow incapable of doing this without the help of "an experienced, reputable dyno tuner" then save yourself the keystrokes and frustration because I do not agree and am effing tired of hearing it.

 

the info that i have been trying to supply has been because of the amount of money and heartache that you have had to spend on this project from the beginning. I honestly feel like your builder and tuner BOTH let you down in the first place. I'm not saying that you CAN"T do it. Just that it would have been done by now, for less money with a properly running engine.
the idea that having a dyno tuned bike is ludicrous, is actually not. If your bike had been put together correclty and tuned correctly from the beginning we would not be where we are now!! I actually went through this all myself when i was 16 years old over a car repair, which led to me learning how to be a professional mechanic in the first place. (both Automive and Motorcycle.
There are few people on this earth that I feel are better than me at what i do, BUT ED was one of my instructors when I was in school at Harely-Davidson and if anyone here on this forum knows what he is talking about, It's Ed Ramberger! So if you want to have doubts about most of us, ok, but i would advise NOT to doubt info that you get from him.
Now on the topic of good enough fro most riders. It's obvious to me and should be to you, that your bike was not tuned "good enough" from the get go, or none of us would be where we are now. Good enough for most riders to means that the bike starts easily both cold and hot, does not have any flat spots, has good idle quality, does not smoke, makes good power and gets good fuel mileage and runs at acceptable temperatures.
No one is insulting your intelligence, you posts and questions alone show that you do not understand the depth of what is required and that it takes time and money to learn to do this job well. good luck with it!
m

 

I do get Z's point. To make something yourself, tuning included is very satisfying. And if he keeps on learning and keeps on tuning, he will make an error once and a while. But he will get the satisfaction of learning from it as well. That's is very satisfying.
As far as I have followed Z's posts, he is doing a lot himself. I really can appreciate that. If Z continues like that, after a few years we all can have a beer together and laugh about it. While complementing him that he actually put in the effort and learned a lot. And still pick on Z that he still can do better. I would say, keep on going it's your money, your time, your risk. So I don't see the big deal if the guy is just asking a few questions and some advice. Just give it and get on with it.

 

I might have missed it, but what tuner are you using? Does it have the ability to tune cylinders individually?

I really dont see the issue with tuning it yourself using the right tools. Hell I bet half the guys here never put their old carbied bikes on a dyno. A lot of people dont even check AFR's with sensors, just pull a spark plug and make a judgement call on its fueling.

EFI seems complicated but it really isn't, with the tools you've got and a bit of research you will be able to get your bike running with a safe and healthy tune.

 

 

You can use many aftermarket devices to set fuel - have at it. As far as you belittling people who know what they are doing, and are trying to assist you, I really don't get the hostile attitude.

If you're tuning an MM, there aren't any ve tables - you're setting pulse width based on tp and rpm. I hope you understand where the high and low loads are. I'd recommend a PowerCommander for an MM.

Your questions clearly indicate you are a novice and i believe everyone here is sincerely trying to help you.

Perhaps if you truly believe that "every post you make devolves" into a lecture, you may want to look in the mirror - possibly purchase some growacet.

I really do wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.

 

I'm not being hostile, I'm frustrated - frustrated that no matter how many times I carefully explain why I don't want to put my bike on a dyno right now, nor how politely I express it and thank people for their help, people continue to suggest - or straight-out state - that the only way to resolve the issues I'm facing is to pay someone else to do it on a dyno: That's just not true.

I have received some really great help from you guys for which I am eternally grateful. But every question I ask, someone (usually more than one) person says something like "if you'd just hire a competent dyno tuner your problems will be over." Or suggests that I'm somehow incapable of resolving this myself as evidenced by the questions I ask. THAT'S WHY I ASK THEM! .. that IS the point of this forum, isn't it???

My bike is an EFI dinosaur. All I can adjust on it are mixture and timing - that's it. Really, suggesting that tuning this bike is akin to rocket science and requires an advanced degree or years of tuning experience to get those two parameters close enough to have a good, safe tune without involving a dyno is the high-horse soap-box I'm talking about.

I'm pushing the hell out of 60 and have been riding since my teens, including a Honda CB750K that was built-to-the-hilt and had four carbs that I had to tune using a four-tube mercury filled vacuum balancer, and three Harleys, two of which had a good deal of performance mods and spent time on a dyno. I know what a properly tuned bike runs like, yet I keep getting told I'm incompetent (in not so few words) and only a dyno is going to make things better.

And @TomCop thanks for expressing all of this far better than I did!

lol... really, can't we all just get along - without dynos - just this once? Please? Pretty please?