SE EFI Super Tuner
#11
03-16-2008, 10:15 AM
RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
ORIGINAL: Doc 1
Well again you have the same option with the old tuner but you have to pack a lap top along for the ride, matter of fact if you hook up the new Tuner with a lap top you can record 30 minutes of data just like the old version could. A 15 min session of data is not a lot of usable information for tuning when under real road conditions things are changing in fuel delivery and timing by the different map loads on the engine. On a dyno I have control of these conditions and I can hold the throttle position and rpm right where it needs to be for a sample of the fuel delivery for however long it takes....this is impossible to do on the road. If it takes 4~5 hours to do dial in the VE Tables in a controlled situation how many 15 min rides do you think it would take you to get the optimum fuel and timing delivery set right.
With information gathered on a road test and knowing how to read that information you can get the bike to run better than what a canned map will give you but will it be good enough to call it a tune up....not even close. You see, a bike will run fine at15:1 to 11:1 but is it right.....my point is most people don't know what a good running bike feels like until you ride one that has been PROPERLY tuned by a good tuner....it's a WORLD apart. Now my problem is I love using the Race Tuner but anything other than perfection isn't good enough for me or my customers and this is where we might differ when it comes to doing it your self with 15 min road test vs doing it to optimum performance on a dyno in the least amount of time.
I truly believe that the public is being led to believe just what your trying to tell me but in reality you would be changing your tires before you could get a good tune doing road data runs compared to properly synchronized Map made on the dyno.
I don't want to discourage you from giving you skills a shot, I'm sure it will bea learning experience and a lot of fun, but bottom line you won't reach optimum performance in your $15,000.00 investnment.....I think your Harley deserves to have the best, how about you.
Good Luck
Doc
Well again you have the same option with the old tuner but you have to pack a lap top along for the ride, matter of fact if you hook up the new Tuner with a lap top you can record 30 minutes of data just like the old version could. A 15 min session of data is not a lot of usable information for tuning when under real road conditions things are changing in fuel delivery and timing by the different map loads on the engine. On a dyno I have control of these conditions and I can hold the throttle position and rpm right where it needs to be for a sample of the fuel delivery for however long it takes....this is impossible to do on the road. If it takes 4~5 hours to do dial in the VE Tables in a controlled situation how many 15 min rides do you think it would take you to get the optimum fuel and timing delivery set right.
With information gathered on a road test and knowing how to read that information you can get the bike to run better than what a canned map will give you but will it be good enough to call it a tune up....not even close. You see, a bike will run fine at15:1 to 11:1 but is it right.....my point is most people don't know what a good running bike feels like until you ride one that has been PROPERLY tuned by a good tuner....it's a WORLD apart. Now my problem is I love using the Race Tuner but anything other than perfection isn't good enough for me or my customers and this is where we might differ when it comes to doing it your self with 15 min road test vs doing it to optimum performance on a dyno in the least amount of time.
I truly believe that the public is being led to believe just what your trying to tell me but in reality you would be changing your tires before you could get a good tune doing road data runs compared to properly synchronized Map made on the dyno.
I don't want to discourage you from giving you skills a shot, I'm sure it will bea learning experience and a lot of fun, but bottom line you won't reach optimum performance in your $15,000.00 investnment.....I think your Harley deserves to have the best, how about you.
Good Luck
Doc
Thanks for all the info
Ronn
#12
03-16-2008, 03:34 PM
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RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
RonnR,
My bike was stock until about 500 miles when I talked to Doc about doing a stage 1 to get the bike running right. You can see the stage 1 hardware in my sig, but I feel that it is really the professional tune from Doc that has made the bike run the way it should. He dyno tuned the bike, which meant he could measure exactly how much hp and torque were being produced as he tweaked the EFI map.
What you are thinking is that you can log data on a bike as you ride and use that data to tweak your map further. What I think you are missing is a measurement of HOW the bike is really running when your logging data. A dyno gives the tuner very detailed feedback on changes he makes to the EFI. When you log data during a ride, the only measure of how much hp and torque the bike produces is your butt in the saddle. Don't know about you, but my butt isn't sensitive enough to know how much torque I'm getting as I ride. I wouldn't even consider trying to tweak my map further on my own without a dyno and someone who really knows what he's doing, like Doc or another pro tuner.
My bike was stock until about 500 miles when I talked to Doc about doing a stage 1 to get the bike running right. You can see the stage 1 hardware in my sig, but I feel that it is really the professional tune from Doc that has made the bike run the way it should. He dyno tuned the bike, which meant he could measure exactly how much hp and torque were being produced as he tweaked the EFI map.
What you are thinking is that you can log data on a bike as you ride and use that data to tweak your map further. What I think you are missing is a measurement of HOW the bike is really running when your logging data. A dyno gives the tuner very detailed feedback on changes he makes to the EFI. When you log data during a ride, the only measure of how much hp and torque the bike produces is your butt in the saddle. Don't know about you, but my butt isn't sensitive enough to know how much torque I'm getting as I ride. I wouldn't even consider trying to tweak my map further on my own without a dyno and someone who really knows what he's doing, like Doc or another pro tuner.
#13
03-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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#14
03-17-2008, 11:10 AM
RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
Knightlimper, I think you missread my post.. I agree 100% that you must have your bike Dyno Tuned by a professional tech. Some of us dont have the fortune of having techs with the integrity of Doc. Even Doc will tell you that some techs tune for numbers (making the customer feel good) But others (as Doc) tune for performance (making your bike feel good). Good numbers dont necessaraly mean a well tuned bike.. Assuming you have complete blind faith in your tech, which in you case works out , and you have no interest in how the tuning variation could effect you riding experience, then any kind of an interface or data recorder would be of no interest to you . The ability to check what the ECM is doing at different conditions is a great learning tool as far as I'm concerned.
You say " When you log data during a ride, the only measure of how much hp and torque the bike produces is your butt in the saddle." I think you dont completely understand the purposeand functions of a Data Recorder.
I'm not flaming you, I just wanted to make sure you understood my post.. I agree with everything Doc has said, I just wanted to point out that for those of us who dont have access to a Dyno set-up any time we want. That a Data Recorder could help maintain and observe differant riding conditions, in a real world eviroment.. You always have the pofessionally dynotuned map to go back too. Afterall just think of all the riders who never have their bikes dynoed, They will never run like they were designed too. 'Thanks EPA'
You say " When you log data during a ride, the only measure of how much hp and torque the bike produces is your butt in the saddle." I think you dont completely understand the purposeand functions of a Data Recorder.
I'm not flaming you, I just wanted to make sure you understood my post.. I agree with everything Doc has said, I just wanted to point out that for those of us who dont have access to a Dyno set-up any time we want. That a Data Recorder could help maintain and observe differant riding conditions, in a real world eviroment.. You always have the pofessionally dynotuned map to go back too. Afterall just think of all the riders who never have their bikes dynoed, They will never run like they were designed too. 'Thanks EPA'
#15
03-17-2008, 01:20 PM
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RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
RonnR,
I understand what you mean by wanting to record data during rides, but the data you collect from the EFI is not complete. It will not give you any reference to the real world road conditions that created the data. Level ground, hills, turns, all will affect how the bike will run and be reflected in the data you collect. But there is no spot in your recorded data that will indicate if you were on a turn, climbing a hill, or running level. There is also no indication of what gear you are in. Without some reference as to the road conditions that created the data in the log your map tweaking may be way off, yet "feel" better to you. I suspect that the data logging function will serve to give you insight into your riding style more than a way to tweak your EFI map.
I agree with you that which type of tuner philosophy (numbers vs. performance) is used makes a big difference in how the bike will run. The point I am trying to make is that without the known reference of the dyno the data from the EFI will be difficult to interpret or use to tweak with.
I understand what you mean by wanting to record data during rides, but the data you collect from the EFI is not complete. It will not give you any reference to the real world road conditions that created the data. Level ground, hills, turns, all will affect how the bike will run and be reflected in the data you collect. But there is no spot in your recorded data that will indicate if you were on a turn, climbing a hill, or running level. There is also no indication of what gear you are in. Without some reference as to the road conditions that created the data in the log your map tweaking may be way off, yet "feel" better to you. I suspect that the data logging function will serve to give you insight into your riding style more than a way to tweak your EFI map.
I agree with you that which type of tuner philosophy (numbers vs. performance) is used makes a big difference in how the bike will run. The point I am trying to make is that without the known reference of the dyno the data from the EFI will be difficult to interpret or use to tweak with.
#16
03-17-2008, 04:11 PM
RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
I dont understand why your against medoing this.. I'mnot talking against the positive effects of Dyno tuning, I'm not saying that a Data Recorder will ever replace a true Duno tune . But after all a Dyno tune is recording the data from your ecm.And if I run the same flat course, throttle locked at same rpm, in the same gear, and hit the record button at the same track mark, stop, thenevaluate, then make small value changes.. And then repeat, I will find a sweet spot. And it very well could be that the tech who Dynoed my bike hit it right on, and all my tweaking never improves on performance or milage.. But at least I'll feel better about it, knowing it was as good as it could be..As Doc said I could possibly run thru a set of tires doing this.
You can have your bike Dyno tuned and just ride, I choose to have mine Dyno tuned and learn while I'm riding.. I realize you think I'm wasteing my time, but it is my time and I really enjoy the learning..........
You can have your bike Dyno tuned and just ride, I choose to have mine Dyno tuned and learn while I'm riding.. I realize you think I'm wasteing my time, but it is my time and I really enjoy the learning..........
#17
05-06-2008, 06:35 AM
#18
05-06-2008, 06:44 AM
RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
Another option is ask Latus if they have a MAP for your desired setup. $50.00 for a MAP. I did from recommendations of others here and I am very pleased with the results. Latus people are very nice to deal with.
http://www.harley-davidson-forum.net/index.php
http://www.harley-davidson-forum.net/index.php
#19
05-06-2008, 08:45 AM
RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
When you do data runs and get all the information the ECM is making your still MISSING the MAIN ingredient to be able to analyze what needs to be changed........you HAVE to have a reading of the AFR coming out the tail pipe....without this info your waisting your time and wearing out your tires. Lets face it, what are you trying to accomplish .......your trying to get the correct AFR, how can that be done with out AFR data to read.
#20
05-06-2008, 01:23 PM
RE: SE EFI Super Tuner
Doc i thought you could adjust the AFR with the sert or super tunner ? and can't the MT5/6 extion be changed to MTO? as for him not wanting to pay for a Dyno can't he just buy a map that is close to his build? as for me i alway have mine Dyno tuned...good insurance.