I've got a new Street Bob on the way & I'm having Screamin Eagle slip-ons put on, along with the air cleaner and breather kit. The HD dealer where I'm getting the bike from was talking about using the Race Tuner kit. I've talked to people at a different HD dealer that say to use the Power Commander. Which would be the better set-up? What is the advantage of one over the other?

 

I like the SERT over the Power Commander. Here is a great article I have posted in the Tech Section.

https://www.hdforums.com/m_181817/tm.htm

 

ALOT depends on the place you plan on taking your bike to for the dyno tuning. Neither is any good if the shop doesn't know how to use it. I would first figure out what shop you plan on taking to and then that will help in the decision.

I personally chose the SERT.

 

There are good threads throughout the forum on this subject. If you have the time I highly recommend reading them.

I think the decision to use the SERT or the Power Commander III depends on - 1) What does your dyno tuner prefer and then 2) how familiar are you with EFI and closed loop 02 sensors?

In terms of functionality the SERT is superior; however, you have to be well informed about what the SERT is doing. I am only beginning to learn about my Harley ( 06 FXDWGI) and did not feel confident enough to go with the SERT. With the 06 Dynas using closed loop 02 sensors you would want to incorporate that technology in your SERT. You can't do that with the PC III. Maybe I am paranoid but to gain the benefit from the SERT my dyno tuner really needs to know how to map my ECM with the closed loop 02 sensors. I am not sure most tuners have had that much experience yet. I'm not saying they won't in a year or so, but the system on the 06's is new technology and if I am going with the SERT I want to use the advantages of the 02 sensors. I think if you use the SERT you need to be able to look at the map on your own ECM and make sure your dyno tune really incorporates the advantages of the closed loop system. I'm not there yet. In my mind unless your SERT map uses closed loop technology there isn't any difference between the PC III and SERT for the modifications you plan to put on your bike.

Understand I think the SERT is better. However, at my level of experience and my dyno tuner's experience the PC III was my choice for now. In another year or so I might be using something totally different, and it might not even be the SERT. There are several other EFI tuners that might well be superior to the SERT down the road.

Hope this helps. I encourage you to spend some time on the forum reading about this issue-there is a wealth of information and excellent advice to be found. You can't go wrong with either tuner, but each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

 

Ditto Cheyenne.

My dealer races Screamin' Eagle Nitro Harleys. AHDRA, All Harley Drag Race Association. In a nutshell here's what his R&D department explained to me.

Most dealers install Power Commanders because they are easier. Unlike the SERT the PCIII can be adjusted on the Dyno.

Harley-Davidson makes getting SERT certified a cumbersome process in that they first require this certification and then that one berfore they'll get you SERT certified. Because of all the red tape, not all dealers become certified.

The SERT is first applied to the ECM and then the results are recorded on the Dyno. Unlike the PCIII, the SERT cannot be adjusted on the Dyno. Think about it! The PCIII is a separate componet. Whereas the SERT actually flashes the ECM. That means you update the ECM and then run and record the results. Then flash and run again. Therefore, it's a more difficult and timely process to apply the SERT through trial and error. For most applications the PCIII works well. The downside to the PCIII is two fold. 1) it is a separate/additional component subject to failure; 2) it has a limitted range albeit most will not need to go beyond it's capabilities. In Summary the SERT is much more complicated than the PCIII but the result of the SERT is extended and finite settings.

Now that's they way I understood the explaination and it makes sense to me. Most are going with PCIII because of cost and also because the PCIII range is sufficient. The SERT is typically overkill in that you’ll probably never need to go beyond what the PCIII will accomplish. The Screamin Eagle Race Tuner is for racing and has all kinds of disclaimers for street use. I understand that the Feds are clamping down and HD is caving and will no longer offer the SERT after May. But that’s just a rumor.

One last thought, I believe the Sert has a PROM. But whatever it is, it is initialized to the VIN/ECM on the bike and therefore it cannot be moved to another. Not sure about the PCIII. But I think it can be moved to another VIN/ECM.

I have the SERT. But again Ditto Cheyenne.

I could be all wet on this, but this is my understanding and I hope it is somewhat helpful.

Bob

 

If I may add my two cents.....I spoke this subject over with the dealer and he advised going with the race tuner, he was not
trashing the PCIII, but did inform me that he has seen a PCIII take out the ECM. Has this happened to anyone here ? Does anyone know the cost of the ECM ? Just curious...............

 

You make some good points. The PC III can be moved from bike to bike, FYI.

I agree that for simple air cleaner and exhaust modifications the PC III is adequate. You do lose the feedback to the ECM from the 02 sensors, but overall that is probably a minor contribution from a narrow band sensor such as what HD is using. It would be a much bigger deal if it were a wide band sensor.

But no question about it, the race tuner in the right hands is superior technology.

Other companies are beginning to use wide band technology such as the Daytona Twin Tech Wego II system. I had heard they were coming out with a new EFI tuner sometime in April. Another notable tuner is the Terry Components Terminal Velocity II. I think we will see other innovative EFI tuners over the next 12-18 months that will be better than the SERT. For this reason alone, I wanted to leave my ECM stock and add the PC III. I am running a "safe" map now and my bike runs great. I will get it dyno tuned with a custom map when I get to 1000 miles.

My point was that if you go with the race tuner-you the owner needs to be able to look at your map and confirm that your SERT custom map really is doing what you want. A dyno tech can give you a nice running machine with a custom map that doesn't use the closed loop system. If that is what you end up with, I don't see the difference between the PC III and SERT.

 

When I was deciding which way to go with my bike I asked my dealer about this issue. Somewhere on this forum I had read a similar post about taking out the ECM. In all the years my dealer has installed PC's they have never encountered this problem. I suppose anything is possible but they had never heard of this happening.

 

There is no reason why any competent tuner shouldn't be able to use both the sert and PCIII. Tuning is tuning, no matter if it's the PCIII, Sert or rejetting a carb. You've got the same variables - mixture and timing. The dyno tuner should have an exhaust sniffer at his disposal, and that makes it even easier. These tuners are easy to use and tuning a bike isn't rocket science.

It makes me suspicious when a tuner says he can't use one of these tools. It makes me suspect that he's not really a tuner, and he's just a guy selling canned maps for $300 with maybe a few adjustments. I've seen a few "custom" maps that had huge descrepencies in one or two cells. Say, a 15 unit drop in VE at 2250 rpm/60% throttle that doesnt exist at 2000 rpm or 2500 rpm. There is no explaination for that other than sloppy work or an incompetant tuner. Even if the guy isn't officially certified by HD, the sert isn't hard to learn. I'm sure he has no PCIII certification either... so what does that tell you?

Just be wary of who you deal with. Learn a little bit about the tuning device you purchase and spend some time examining any custom map you buy.

 

I agree with everything you say. I think it is imperative that whatever map is on your bike-you the owner needs to examine it. I do think that for us more novice users the SERT is more difficult to understand. It has more adjustments that add a layer of complexity. At the same time those capabilities make it more functional. What I implied is that if you go with a SERT the owner needs to understand what the map is doing using the closed loop system, and how to adjust the 02 sensors, etc. to take full advantage of the SERT.

Maybe we can eventually get a list of good SERT/PC III tuners. I agree that too many tuners put a canned map with just a few mods to make it "custom".