1.) radio signals are subject to interference, stuff just happens and it may take another try.

2.) if you have a security system and you have not set a PIN, do so.
then you can start your bike instead of posting on the internet... the touring board gets a couple of posts a weeks from guys who didn't set a pin and lost/broke or old battery in fob.

It's a great system, just be aware that sometime the phone in your pocket will keep the fob from working, or numerous bikes and fobs in close proximity may interfere with each other.

Every Time it works, you can thank Hedy Lamar for the technology.

Mike

 

The RF reception problem has been observed at many dealerships, the reason are the wireless security cameras on dealers’ floor interfere with the motorcycle security system.
All dealers and their staff know that but some are playing games making bikers believe that there is a problem with their bike and “needs repair”.

Intermittent failures to receive an RF signal are common to all receivers, no matter what kind of application or technology is used. As far as I know no receiver has been invented that guarantees 100% reception under all circumstances possible.
More expensive receivers use “frequency hopping” (automatically switch to different frequencies trying to find one where there is no interference with the signal) but even that is not 100% guaranteed – you could be close to a “white noise” generator and then no frequency hopping will help you, the “white noise” jams the whole spectrum. Any equipment that produces arcing/ sparking or has poor grounding can be almost a “white noise” generator. The good news is that noise has very limited range of interference, usually up to 30 feet maximum.

As some fellows advised learn how to manually disarm the security using the PIN – works every time, takes less than 15 sec and will save you lots of 4-letter words next time you park in a zone with electromagnetic interference )

 

As I stated in another message, the PIN is changed, I use it and the card is in my wallet. To focus on the reason I started this in the first place. To provide a general tracking if there was an overall issue that Harley may not want to admit to...

While I agree with your input, remember that the FOB/receiver relationship is really quite close. I had failure with the FOB on my seat. As interference or the source of the interference dissipates by the foot to the receiver, the failure shouldn't be happening. I've spent lots of time in FCC labs but will quickly say that I was the project manager and the resources were, of course tech and engineer level.

I still see this as a problem with the Harley design by simply looking to the automotive industry which uses the very same technology - without failure.

 

Well, since you seem to be very proficient in EMC this makes the whole discussion much easier.

Being knowledgeable of the Harley security system you are familiar with the following:
- The system uses two frequencies: 125 kHz for polling signal and 343 MHz for downlink from FOB to ECU
- the 125 kHz LF antenna is right under the seat
- the 125 kHz LF signals attenuate very fast with distance
- within inches from the LF antenna the harmonics of the carrier frequency are very high; high enough to interfere with the 434 MHz receiver. And within several inches the LF signal itself is so high that it can saturate the FOB’s receiving circuit.

So, if you leave your FOB on the seat right above the antenna (within less than 4" from the antenna) then the uplink will interfere with the downlink.

That said, I believe that the Harley FOB was intended to be carried in the pocket. And there was something in the owners manual saying that the FOB should not be placed in the same pocket with cell phones and other electronic devices.

Automotive Security Systems experience interference all the time. Many times I have to activate the "Disarm" button more than once in order to disarm the system on my "Lexus". Couple of years ago there ware lots of posts on the internet about the "Bermuda triangle" downtown Chicago - within one mile radius most cars with security wouldn't disarm. And you being an EMC expert I don't think you really believe that cars' receivers are somehow "immune" to EMI, in all cases?
The reason the auto drivers don't make much fuss about it is that they can always open and start their car using the car key, not the FOB.
Harley Ignition Key is not very suitable as a back up since the bike is easily hot-wired and the Ignition Key can be by-passed within 5-10 sec. So, I guess, this is why they put in the PIN disarming as a back up in case the RF communications crap out.

 

I never said I was "proficient" nor did I say I was an "expert." I clearly stated that I've spent lots of time in anechoic chambers however I relied on the talents of the engineers working for me.

That aside and bringing it back to being more productive. Though I did not know the frequencies used, I do understand the process that you outlined, poll and handshake.

During my event, (the first time it locked up on me) the system was tested multiple locations and each location, multiple times. Seat, pocket, jacket, aside bike right side close enough to reach the starter switch. Failure was all the time except once while standing aside the bike. At no time was there a cell phone near the FOB. It was in the right cowl pocket of the Road Glide.

The bike also failed at other locations, Laconia being one, traveling in Maine, upstate NY in the middle of no where but the frequency of failure slowed - which frankly made no sense to me.

As for Lexus, I had no knowledge of this. My opinion was based on years of remote unlock and keyless FOB (in fact Lexus) entry systems. I'm not sure of the frequencies used with remote unlock so I'd ask you, does remote entry use the same frequencies as keyless FOB? Just curious.

Please respect the intent of the base message. To gather potential trend data. If there is none then I can accept that and resolve to some sort of EMI issue but there's no reason to be snide about it. "you being an EMC expert" This is about trying to be helpful towards this community.

 

Point well taken, Rick. I’m sorry if I came across as sarcastic, I just like to kid a lot.

I do not consider myself an expert in anything, even in beer drinking. But I know a little bit about security systems. So, here are some of the facts as I know them:
1.) All automotive security systems use 315MHz or 434MHz, those are the only two allowed and world-wide approved bands.
2.) Harley first used 315MHz (till 2006), then switched to 434MHz since the higher frequency has longer propagation.
3.) The allowed transmitted level is 50mV/m. No FOB signal is allowed to exceed that level. Harley’s FOB transmits just that level.
4.) The technology used on Harley’s security is the same used on GM vehicles and is manufactured by the same company, Delphi. The circuitry is the same, just the packages are different.
5.) The “hands-free” technology used on Harleys is the same used on upper end cars all over the world. The transmitter and receiver circuitry is the same.
6.) There is difference in the LF antennas (the antennas exciting the FOB). In automotive they use one antenna in each door, sometimes up to six antennas in a vehicle. Harley uses only one.
7.) The LF polling signal is not the one causing the problem. Low frequency signals don’t propagate very far. To have interference with the LF signal you have to be parked within 10 feet from some industrial equipment cranking up lots of EM noise.
8.) The RF signal from the FOB is the one prone to interference with. The reason being is: the signal is too low (by regulation requirements) and the RF receiver is too sensitive (between 10 and 35 microvolt/m) and can be easily jammed by parasitic noise (harmonics) of some other transmitter if close enough.
9.) Ordinarily problems are reported on certain locations (not just with bikes but with autos as well). The area of interference can vary from several feet to up to a mile from the source of the EM interference, depending on the power of the offending transmitter and on how clean the transmitting signal is (if a transmitter is poorly grounded or has failing filters then it can transmit high energy harmonics in very broad spectrum). Sources that have been confirmed to interfere with automotive security systems are:
- Surveillance cameras on some gas stations
- Surveillance cameras in dealer’s show rooms
- Amateur radio/ tv stations (due to poor installation and non-compliance to FCC)
- Warehouse inventory RF tracking system (RF tags) – within 20 feet from the building.
- Correction facilities with inmate RF tracking system installed ( there is one in San Diego that jams all 434MHz receivers within 1 mile distance if you park in a spot where you can see the antennas on the roof)
- Some police or fire station transceivers – due to poor grounding/ corrosion of the grounding plane of the antennas.

I’ve been using Harley security system ever since they came out in 2001. Since then I’ve had 3 bikes and never had a problem. May be I’m just lucky.
Also, I’ve been to many rallies across the country where thousands of bikers were congregating and parking next to each other – I never observed a problem. Well, almost never. Once I helped a guy disarm his bike – the guy had dropped his FOB and it landed up wedged between the exhaust pipe and melted. And another guy had driven away forgetting his FOB in his garage and could not restart the bike. From fellow riders I heard about interference in Ponca City, Oklahoma and in downtown San Diego. In Ponca City it turned out that the offending transmitter was an amateur severe weather radio station with antennas mounted on top of the fire station – everybody who was parked in plain view of the fire station could not start his bike, but when pushed around the corner the bikes were starting just fine.

I’m positive in your case the problems you had were due to interference at the location you parked. Receivers do not change their sensitivity randomly; transmitters do not change their signal power at will. The only thing that changed is the location you parked at.
That said, there is always the possibility that your system may have reduced range of reception. That could happen if the LF antenna is not on the proper location and orientation, or you have placed some metal above it; or the antenna is located less than an inch to the grounded chassis of the bike.

 

Hi, Rick

With my post above I made it look like the Harley and the automotive security systems work exactly the same way.
While it is true on the part of the hardware used and the frequencies and signal levels used there is still one big difference in the motorcycle and automotive systems, and that is that on automotive systems (and on aftermarket systems) the RF receiver is ON all the time. On Harleys the RF receiver is turned ON only when the Ignition Key is turned ON or vehicle is picked up.

The reason for this difference is that if left ON the RF receiver consumes extra several milliamps of standby current. On cars it doesn’t really matter: cars are driven on regular basis and not left parked for months in a row and car’s battery capacity is almost twice that of a motorcycle battery. On motorcycle battery it is different story, every milliamp counts. Three milliamps increase of the standby current will shorten in half the time you can leave the bike parked without a charger connected. Otherwise said, on my Softail the maximum time I can leave the bike parked will drop from 3 months to month and a half. Depending on ambient temperature and humidity that time may drop down to less than a month.

So, preserving battery juice comes at some price - when the RF receiver is powered up there is a greater chance to miss the first FOB transmission as opposed to when the RF receiver is always ON and “listening”.
I’ve seen it happening on my bike, in 20 % of the cases there is a slight delay (less than 2 sec) by the time security system receives the FOB signal and disarms.
However, this has nothing to do with interference with outside sources – if the system does not receive the first FOB response it continues to re-try and establish connection with the FOB; if there was no interference the FOB signal will be received within 2 or maximum 3 handshakes. If interference is present then depending on the magnitude of the interference the system may disarm within several more handshakes or may never disarm, but this goes for all systems and is the RF receiver constantly ON or not does not really matter.

 

I had a 08 Sporty with security, smart siren and pager and presently have the same setup on my 09 Road King. After 2 years I opted to change the fob battery as "preventive maintenance". The system has worked flawlessly.

 

I am actually removing the fob system off my bike sick of dealing with it, having my mechanic take it out this winter, the hell with it

 

I did the same thing with my guitar, it was driving me nuts, I could never get the right tune out of it.
I gave it to my neighbor and it works fine in his house, I can hear it sometimes.
I still can’t figure out what was wrong with my house?
Location, location, location….