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LiveWire, Pan America, StreetFighter & Custom Harley-Davidson's emerging models: HD's first electric motorcycle the LiveWire, the Pan America Adventure bike, the Ducati fighting StreetFighter and the possible Sportster replacement 'Custom' model.

LiveWire LiveWire Price

 
  #21  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by foxtrapper View Post
  • Level 2: LiveWire can be connected to a Level 2 charge unit but will be charged at the Level 1 rate.
That's the killer for me. With that restriction, you can't ride the bike anywhere really.
I recall reading that dealers that sold them would have the charging stations. For the heck of it I just checked the website and all the dealers that are near me in eastern PA are authorized sellers. It may just be possible to spend a day riding a few hundred miles on them if the charge rate on the level 3 charger is as quick as VAfish posted.

I am not a candidate for one at this point as I am a long distance rider and I seldom ride less than 100-200 miles at a time unless I am simply using the bike as transportation. However I may ask my dealer if he can lend me one so I can knock out a 1,000 mile ride in 24 hours on one once they are available
 
  #22  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by VAFish View Post
To be fair, I haven't seen any specs for torque or HP for the Livewire yet. I bet the Zero DSR is a closer comparison than the Zero S ZF14.4. You also have to include the Level II Charge Tank for quicker charging on the Zero, but the Live Wire has a Level III quick charger in it. HD Says the Level III charger will give 197 miles per hour of charging, if the bike has a 110 mile range then half an hour on the quick charger will get you another 100 miles. If you could plan your ride around Level III charging stations it would be about like riding a Sportster with the 2.5 gal tank.

So when you combine the price of a DSR or SR with the charge tank the Harley is about $11,000 more expensive.

So from what I can see from limited specs the Livewire has some advantages over the Zero, but I don't think they are worth $11,000 of my money.
The bigger problem is HD is playing fast and loose with what they are letting out and no real numbers are being stated. So we can all guess what it maybe but looking at just what has been said, it doesn't look to me to be anything new or ground breaking, just coping what's already out there and slapping the HD name and HD tax to it. . The Zero has real published specifications, HD does not. Zero has been producing and sell them for years, HD has not. The Zero comes with the home 120 and the HD comes with the home 120 charging capability. Beyond that it's anyone's best guess at what the HD maybe. The claim for 197 miles per hour of charge to me is BS, since they state only a 110 mile range and that specification are not being released as changes may still happen. The one dealership I spoke with stated a 2 hour fast charge time is what they have been told to 90% capacity. As for planning a ride around charging stations, that's a no go for most, as what happens when you arrive at the charge station only to find out it being used by others in front of you or it down for repairs? You could be sitting at a charging station for more than a few hours at each stop!

I still do not see where these are going to really help anything in real transportation. The cost to produce and dispose of it, along with the way the energy has to be produced to run a high voltage charger all adds up and in the long run I just do not see it being any cleaner overall. I have heard the cost to setup a charging station is running dealerships in the $40K - $50K range for what HD demands. With that kind of investment the dealer is going to be looking for some return on there investment, so what's the charging bill going to be like when you go to plug in? My bet, its not going to be free. I can already see HD saying it must be charged at home or one of our approved high voltage charging stations or we will void the warranty! I think this price point as advertised and HD being a new entry into EV they will be lucky to sell a few hundred of these things before the new wheres off and people in the market are going elsewhere.
 

Last edited by Steve Cole; 01-08-2019 at 12:03 PM.
  #23  
Old 01-08-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Cole View Post
The bigger problem is HD is playing fast and loose with what they are letting out and no real numbers are being stated. So we can all guess what it maybe but looking at just what has been said, it doesn't look to me to be anything new or ground breaking, just coping what's already out there and slapping the HD name and HD tax to it. . The Zero has real published specifications, HD does not. Zero has been producing and sell them for years, HD has not. The Zero comes with the home 120 and the HD comes with the home 120 charging capability. Beyond that it's anyone's best guess at what the HD maybe. The claim for 197 miles per hour of charge to me is BS, since they state only a 110 mile range and that specification are not being released as changes may still happen. The one dealership I spoke with stated a 2 hour fast charge time is what they have been told to 90% capacity. As for planning a ride around charging stations, that's a no go for most, as what happens when you arrive at the charge station only to find out it being used by others in front of you or it down for repairs? You could be sitting at a charging station for more than a few hours at each stop!

I still do not see where these are going to really help anything in real transportation. The cost to produce and dispose of it, along with the way the energy has to be produced to run a high voltage charger all adds up and in the long run I just do not see it being any cleaner overall. I have heard the cost to setup a charging station is running dealerships in the $40K - $50K range for what HD demands. With that kind of investment the dealer is going to be looking for some return on there investment, so what's the charging bill going to be like when you go to plug in? My bet, its not going to be free. I can already see HD saying it must be charged at home or one of our approved high voltage charging stations or we will void the warranty! I think this price point as advertised and HD being a new entry into EV they will be lucky to sell a few hundred of these things before the new wheres off and people in the market are going elsewhere.
Steve,

You have a lot of valid points. and until the bikes actually are out and being independently tested we won't know the answers.

Just a couple of responses, from the HD web site, the way I read it, the Livewire will come with the fast DC charging built in, and the photos show the Combined Charging System Plug under the fuel cap. Downside is that the Livewire won't charge at a faster rate on the Level II public chargers and the Level III Fast DC chargers are not as popular. The level III Fast DC chargers are much more expensive to install than the Level II AC chargers.

If you want an electric motorcycle there are a lot of reasons to choose the Zero over the Harley, 10 years of manufacturing and working the bugs out is a big one. An $11,000 (or more) lower price is another.

At this point long cross country rides are not an electric motorcycles forte. You are right if you plan around fast charging stations you can get stuck for hours waiting to use one. Same thing could happen if you and two of your buddies with Livewires go for a ride and want to charge your bikes while you are eating lunch, but oh the charging station only has 2 quick chargers. But look at how Tesla has built up their charging infrastructure, people are taking cross country trips in their Tesla's now. Would have been nice if Harley had joined with Tesla and been able to use their charging network. I would bet that the Fast DC chargers being installed at dealers will charge you for electricity, just like Tesla's network charges Tesla drivers.

The 197 miles per hour of charging is probably the maximum rate using the Fast DC chargers, That is also most likely the initial rate when charging an almost empty battery. As the batteries near 80-90% charge the charging rate is slowed down. Think of it like a Sportster, I can go 120 miles an hour on my Sportster, but with a 2.5 gal peanut tank at that speed I'm out of gas in about 70 miles. So while I might be able to hit the speed of 120 mile per hour, there is no way I could actually travel 120 miles in one hour. While some would call that BS, others call it marketing.

As for the livewire helping real transportation, I could use an electric motorcycle for riding to work everyday. My commute to work can be between 27 and 47 miles one way depending upon which route I take. There is a free level II charging station in the parking garage of my office. With a 110 mile combined highway city range I should be able to just charge the bike up at work and never pay for electricity for my commute. But going off what we know now about the Livewire, if I am spending my money on an electric motorcycle, a Zero DSR would be a better option at a much lower price.
 
  #24  
Old 01-08-2019, 02:13 PM
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This thread is already at 160+ posts. Might be simpler to add on to it.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/gener...e-range-4.html
 
  #25  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:21 PM
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Canadian prices ‘start at $37,250.’ With applicable taxes and no rebates that I’m aware of here,it’s $41,250 Can. This is phuckin’ ridiculous!!! No thanks HD, I’ll pass.
 

Last edited by BCSG; 01-09-2019 at 08:23 PM.
  #26  
Old 01-11-2019, 07:41 PM
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Default A rough theory of LiveWire pricing

I have a rough theory about the LiveWire’s launch and pricing:

1. Harley-Davidson’s market research likely indicates that while potential customers are warm to an electric motorcycle in theory, technological limitations of range and charging time, and the currently primitive charging infrastructure, make them unlikely to pull the trigger on any electric motorcycle in practice, at _any_ plausible price. (Zero’s sales, last reported in the very low four digits annually, would seem to bear this out.)

2. However, the MoCo has concluded that there is a lot of _goodwill_ to be gained by being _in_ the electric motorcycle market, now, with a real, for-sale bike and not merely a concept showbike (from the environmentally-conscious; from millennial and Gen Z prospective riders who like the idea, if not the practicality, of an electric motorcycle), but not a lot of _profit_ to be gained from trying to move large numbers of electric motorcycles. At the margin, LiveWire’s goodwill may be transferred ("halo effect") to its internal-combustion bikes. Buyers who want an electric but find them still too impractical, may be willing to give H-D a look for an internal-combustion bike because – unlike the other manufacturers of internal-combustion bikes – H-D is actually trying to bring about the environmentally-conscious, electric-bike future and putting their money where their mouth is.

3. In these circumstances, the MoCo has concluded that the best way to use the LiveWire launch is to establish a market _position_ at the top end of what they see as a still-nascent market, rather than to try to compete for market _share_ in a market that is still too small to sustain a viable business. (Remember, Zero is still operating on venture capital. It likely isn’t _yet_ turning much, if any, profit.)

4. This market positioning has the added competitive advantage of disrupting Zero’s market positioning and narrative. In press accounts, Zero is presented as the Tesla of electric motorcycles. As this Matt Laidlaw video indicates (
), however, Harley-Davidson has built a bike to the level of fit and finish (and price) to _be_ the Tesla of electric motorcycles. Zero is now the budget alternative to the Tesla of electric motorcycles, not the Tesla itself. This positioning also establishes LiveWire as the aspirational electric motorcycle, much as Harley-Davidson cruisers and baggers are the aspirational models in their classes.

5. By pricing LiveWire so high relative to the hopes of the online commentariat, Harley-Davidson has captured virtually all of the mindshare surrounding electric motorcycles. Ask people at random after this week to name an electric motorcycle. If they can name one at all, it is likely to be LiveWire. The only people who will name Zero (or another, even more obscure brand) are electric motorcycle geeks and motorcycle industry cognoscenti. The online furor over the price today is a long-term public relations coup for the MoCo.

6. If the above is correct, Harley-Davidson is likely building relatively few LiveWires for release in 2019, and is hoping this unannounced number of $29,799 LiveWires will sellout to early adopters in the currently-underway preorder. Stage-managed correctly, that sellout could be used to suggest that the electric motorcycle has arrived and thereby kick-start the market into post-nascence and (once the technology and infrastructure improve to make electric bikes viable alternatives to a main, internal-combustion bike) profitability.

Of course, whether this will all work to the MoCo’s ultimate advantage is another question.
 

Last edited by LexM; 01-11-2019 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Forgot to add link
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  #27  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LexM View Post
I have a rough theory about the LiveWire’s launch and pricing:

1. Harley-Davidson’s market research likely indicates that while potential customers are warm to an electric motorcycle in theory, technological limitations of range and charging time, and the currently primitive charging infrastructure, make them unlikely to pull the trigger on any electric motorcycle in practice, at _any_ plausible price. (Zero’s sales, last reported in the very low four digits annually, would seem to bear this out.)

2. However, the MoCo has concluded that there is a lot of _goodwill_ to be gained by being _in_ the electric motorcycle market, now, with a real, for-sale bike and not merely a concept showbike (from the environmentally-conscious; from millennial and Gen Z prospective riders who like the idea, if not the practicality, of an electric motorcycle), but not a lot of _profit_ to be gained from trying to move large numbers of electric motorcycles. At the margin, LiveWire’s goodwill may be transferred ("halo effect") to its internal-combustion bikes. Buyers who want an electric but find them still too impractical, may be willing to give H-D a look for an internal-combustion bike because – unlike the other manufacturers of internal-combustion bikes – H-D is actually trying to bring about the environmentally-conscious, electric-bike future and putting their money where their mouth is.

3. In these circumstances, the MoCo has concluded that the best way to use the LiveWire launch is to establish a market _position_ at the top end of what they see as a still-nascent market, rather than to try to compete for market _share_ in a market that is still too small to sustain a viable business. (Remember, Zero is still operating on venture capital. It likely isn’t _yet_ turning much, if any, profit.)

4. This market positioning has the added competitive advantage of disrupting Zero’s market positioning and narrative. In press accounts, Zero is presented as the Tesla of electric motorcycles. As this Matt Laidlaw video indicates (https://youtu.be/TkSARmOrp-I), however, Harley-Davidson has built a bike to the level of fit and finish (and price) to _be_ the Tesla of electric motorcycles. Zero is now the budget alternative to the Tesla of electric motorcycles, not the Tesla itself. This positioning also establishes LiveWire as the aspirational electric motorcycle, much as Harley-Davidson cruisers and baggers are the aspirational models in their classes.

5. By pricing LiveWire so high relative to the hopes of the online commentariat, Harley-Davidson has captured virtually all of the mindshare surrounding electric motorcycles. Ask people at random after this week to name an electric motorcycle. If they can name one at all, it is likely to be LiveWire. The only people who will name Zero (or another, even more obscure brand) are electric motorcycle geeks and motorcycle industry cognoscenti. The online furor over the price today is a long-term public relations coup for the MoCo.

6. If the above is correct, Harley-Davidson is likely building relatively few LiveWires for release in 2019, and is hoping this unannounced number of $29,799 LiveWires will sellout to early adopters in the currently-underway preorder. Stage-managed correctly, that sellout could be used to suggest that the electric motorcycle has arrived and thereby kick-start the market into post-nascence and (once the technology and infrastructure improve to make electric bikes viable alternatives to a main, internal-combustion bike) profitability.

Of course, whether this will all work to the MoCo’s ultimate advantage is another question.
Yep.

Meanwhile, they put some money into Alta to presumably develop the low-cost, Millennial-appealing entry level models that have a chance of selling in quantity. And they're developing electric bicycles too. The Alta thing didn't work out in the end, but even so, it points towards what the strategy likely was.

The LiveWire was never intended for the bagger rider, the touring bike buyer, or the cash strapped. There will be other models for that. The LiveWire is, IMO, an elite, expensive, exclusive rich man's toy for those who value being unique, exclusive, and first.

It is probably their attempt at a "Halo" product, and like you said, it makes the Zero models look like 250-cc two-stroke Enduros by comparison.

At least, that seems to me like what they intend. Whether the product actually delivers on that promise remains to be seen.

​​​​​​
 

Last edited by FatBob2018; 01-11-2019 at 09:27 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-12-2019, 12:58 AM
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Default Pricing is a joke

As usual, Harley overprices everything. 110 mile range for the Livewire? Wow, unimpressed. I couldn't even use this as a commuter. I'd have to take out an equity loan on my home. HD, get to know your customers, you clearly do not understand them at all.
 
  #29  
Old 01-12-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamushuffle64 View Post
As usual, Harley overprices everything. 110 mile range for the Livewire? Wow, unimpressed. I couldn't even use this as a commuter. I'd have to take out an equity loan on my home. HD, get to know your customers, you clearly do not understand them at all.
I disagree, I think HD knows their current customers. Those current customers are not the target market for the Livewire. I don't see much of Oklahoma as the target market for the Livewire. I think the majority of their target market is the North East, Mid Atlantic and West Coast.
 
  #30  
Old 01-12-2019, 09:46 PM
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I here all this talk about an elite, expensive, exclusive rich man's toy for those who value being unique. Problem is from what been stated so far, it's none of those things. Zero isn't the only Electric cycle out there and if you compare everything HD has said that they have coming on the Livewire, it's less in all aspects than what you can go buy today from other suppliers. The Energica EGO model has everything HD has stated so far, PLUS better suspension, more powerful motor, more adjustable rider control modes, better charging rates including the Level 4 rates, => range, greater top speed and quicker 0 - 60 mph! Its been on the market for a few years and you can go to a dealer and pick one up today and its price is $22,565 and it comes standard with a 3 year warranty.

The problem here is HD is behind the current production electric bikes and still not in the market with anything. IMHO you need to do something cutting edge if you want to try and be the Tesla of electric bikes and HD has missed that mark, in each and every part of the LiveWire. If they were to come out as they have stated they are today, I do not hold much faith in them selling very many or any of them at all. Maybe if they had brought it out 4 - 5 years ago at this level they could have gotten away with it but not in today's world market.
 

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