Did you read the article I linked above?

Scientifically speaking Horsepower is not a measure of force, Torque is a measure of force. Horsepower is a measure of work being done, it is force over a period of time.

No one is saying Horsepower is irrelevant, but it is not the only measure you need to pay attention to.

The Carrol Shelby quote fits you perfectly. You are looking only at horsepower, simple people look at horsepower and think gee bike X makes 75 HP and bike Y makes 100 HP, therefore bike Y is better, or faster than bike X. Horsepower sells bikes and cars at a dealership because people look at specs on paper and pick the one with higher horsepower. That is not necessarily true, especially on the street or riding a trail in the woods. How the bikes make that horsepower is as important as how much they make, especially on a street or adventure bike that has to perform in a variety of conditions. On a race track where you can tune the gearing, tires, and have a professional rider that peak horsepower may make a difference.

Back around the turn of the century when I was living in the desert and riding dirt bikes there were two very popular choices, the Honda CR500 and the Honda XR600. The CR500 was a two stroke bike that made 55 HP, the XR 600 was four stroke bike that made about 42 HP. The CR500 was faster, but it's motor had a very narrow power band that was difficult to ride, it was very popular on motocross tracks, the XR600 made much more torque and had a wide flat power band, it was much easier to ride and was very popular among trail riders, ranchers, and even open desert racers.

 

I think I'll have to disagree. I think HP numbers are important on a bike. I've done a lot of touring on my hayabusa and that bike only makes about 110 ft/lbs of torque out of 1340ccs. It also makes about 200 whp. It has no issue getting off the line lol. While I love both of my harleys, my next bike will probably be a concours or an fjr; they're simply easier to ride, faster, smoother and more refined for long hauls.

My thoughts are, why have low end torque? When you have high horsepower, which is the ability to use torque over time, you really don't need much torque to move. Why give up more efficient rpm ranges to increase piston dwell times, poor rod to stroke ratios etc? Guys are in here comparing harleys to diesel trucks; reality is an hd 107 (1750cc) makes the same torque (about 95 wtq) than even an fjr (1290cc) makes.

I really hope HD doesn't take the same off idle power approach that they do with their current lineup for their more modern bikes. They'll be dead in the water. Look at other street fighters on the market: fz07, 790 duke, fz09, z900 etc. none of those bikes are making more than 65tq (minus the ktm).


"torque wins races", someone might want to tell mazda their 787b is a **** race car then.

edit: and to add the ftr1200 maked about 80wtq and 110whp. that will be a direct competitor, if the streetfighter ends up being a sub $14k bike.

 

Oh My look out , Now you’ve done it.
You just made sense and that’s not going to work here.

I made the same point , If HP is not relevant , the top fuelers should be running sub 5 sec’s with a non boosted 4 cylinder motor on grain juice , And Keith Black has no idea on how to build a 10,000 HP Nitro engine.

Wiz Bang 🍻

 

1. This thread is about an Adventure Bike which is supposed to be capable of being ridden off road. Not a drag racer, not a Hyabusa. Making torque down low is more important than making tons of horsepower for its intended use.

2. How does a top fuel drag racer get 10,000 HP? With 7,400 lbs ft of torque. You can't get horsepower without torque.

3. NO ONE has said horsepower is irrelevant. You are the one focused purely on horsepower and misunderstanding a quote from Carrol Shelby. If you have a 10,000 HP dragster that makes 7,400 lbs ft of torque and you have a 10,000 hp dragster that makes 5,000 lb ft of torque which one will win the race?


And if we go back up the thread a ways, who described the M8 motor as having "plenty of torque and effortless power"?

 

Anyone know of a zero HP engine that produces toque, cos you don’t need horse power to get moving.

But that’s another thread.

Enter Livewire 🤣

I Just pissed my pants
Wiz 🤘

 

Horsepower is a calculation that is derived from Torque. You don't get horsepower without torque. You don't get horsepower without movement. You don't move a wheeled vehicle without torque (I'm talking with an engine, not pushing, that's a different discussion but we can calculate the horsepower you use pushing a motorcycle if you like). You don't need horsepower to get moving, but once you are moving you can measure the horsepower. The very instant you apply power to an electric motor it is making torque, but since it hasn't started moving yet you can't calculate horsepower. You can put 250 lb ft of torque on a rusted bolt that doesn't move and you are making zero horsepower because you haven't done any work of moving an object., although you will surely get tired of pulling on the wrench handle.

Torque is a measurement of force, horsepower is a measurement of work.

 

As VAFish is explaining, horsepower is a CALCULATION. Torque is the force. Horsepower = torque * RPM, divided by 5252.

If you want horsepower, you need high revs. That's why Harleys can have massive torque, but usually lousy horsepower figures -- because they don't rev high.

Acceleration is due to torque. Torque is the twisting force that turns the wheels. For fast acceleration you want as much torque as possible turning the wheels. For adventure touring, in the dirt, you want as much torque as you can get to keep you going, without having to rev up to 10,000 RPM and keep the clutch slipping when trying to get through some mud or climbing up a hill.

If you want to go FAST (150, 200, 250 mph) you need gobs of horsepower. If you want to get off the line quickly, you want gobs of torque.

If you want an adventure bike for offroading, horsepower is irrelevant, torque is the desired and required factor. Low-end, stump-pulling, hill-climbing torque.

If you are incapable of understanding this, then perhaps this video will help:

 

I read an article in the Minneapolis St Paul Business Journal "Harley's middleweight models expected in 2020 are the Pan America 1250, its first adventure touring model and Streetfighter 975, a sleeker model. Another middleweight, the Custom 1250, was previously announced for a 2021 release."

Hopefully we will see it in a few weeks at the dealer show and not have to wait for a mid year release

 

Hp = torque x rpm / 5252. Pure and simple. Both are needed to win races, to ride on the street. Anyone that looks ONLY at hp numbers to buy a bike is short changing themselves. Anyone that buys based solely on torque is doing the same.

What riders and drivers need to know and use, is power curves. High horsepower is useless if there is no torque until you hit 4000 rpm. The old 2 stroke dirt bikes were like that. Try riding one of those like a 4 stroke and you will stall the engine every time, I know I rode both in the 70's.

HD makes it torque in lower rpm ranges than the vast majority of the bikes of similar displacement. What this does is actually put power in the rpm range where 90% of us drive.

My truck is a 2006 GMC diesel. It has aftermarket tuning and produces 450 hp and 800 tq. Anyone that thinks you have to buy a new one to have power, does not know diesels. The diesel, and HD engines work so well because their power lies where it is needed. Torque gives you that arm socket wrenching power from take off that hp cannot match . Yes the gas dragsters that produce ungodly hp are fast, but if you think that blower sitting on top of the engine only produces hp you know 1/2 as much as you thought you knew. They are on there to produce torque. Drag racing is a out torque, gearing and hp, in that order. Change one and you will have to change the other.

Do yourselves a favor and educate yourselves on how engines do WORK, it is NOT horsepower.

By the way, my old diesel truck has surprised the crap out of a lot of folks that drive their "sports" cars, thinking their high hp engines are the cats meow. This is with a 7000lb truck. Oh the majority of the dualies out there are closer to 9000lbs, a d they will do the same thing. Now put that engine and trans in a Camaro frame (many have done it) and you better have solid head rests behind your head before you slam that throttle down.

HD engines work the same way, they put their power where we will use it. My brother in law rides a Honda ST1300 with 130hp, but I doubt he ever uses over 80hp 90+% of the time. Why, because the power level comes on so high in the rpm range you never get there. So if an engine is rated 100hp at 7000rpm, but even when getting on the freeway, you seldom take it over 5500-6000, you are not using that top 10% of your power. Why? Because your torque peaks at 5500, and you notice POWER dropping off past that point????? Hmmmmm. Sound familiar?

All ICE engines work that way. So why has HD not succumbed to the hp races, in my opinion, its because they don't need to. If modern riders would educate themselves on these facts, the HD platform makes sense.

 

Lol I needed to look up a few posts before me to see the hp calc was already posted. Oh well, obviously some need to see it several times to sink in.