My King had the first gen pump. Failed,,, it's got a 2nd gen pump in it now and it's still a fail. Was at a dealer today and SM told me they are now on the 7th gen pump as he shakes his head in complete discuss. Asked him if I bought the absolute newest oil pump,,, could he and the parts manager guarantee that it's the newest and best pump HD can make for the M8? He said NO.
115 years and the idiots in Milwaukee can't make a 1970's Buick gear rotor 2 stage oil pump right. There is no hope for the want to be Motor Company.... None!
I personally do not think that is from misalignment. The alignment is necessary due to the tolerance of the crank run out or Harley would simply dowel the oil pump like the cam plate.
The crank is a rather loose fit on the inner gyrator oil pump rotor lobe. If you do not double check your work and you have the pump down on the low side, when you start the motor, it can break the harden pump rotors.
I personally think you should have inspected the thickness of the rotors, pump case depth, and space between the rotors to make sure it is correct to the tolerance in the service manual. I know it is new but things happen in the machining process and Harley has had problems here lately with the manufactory suppliers of the M8 engine.
I think that side scoring is from something going thru there and the machining is pretty cruddy from worn out tooling in the machining process.
Of course, just my opinion and I apologize for my first posting 16. Thanks for the pictures. You are a brave man going there like this. Harley has had had this silly alignment issue with the oil pump since the TC. There are pins to do it but they align to threaded holes which is a totally sorry way to align since tapping process can be slightly off center and is rather sloppy fit side to side also. Crap like this is why Japanese engineers just shake their head and roll their eyes.
When you go back together, be sure to get a mechanical pressure gage and check your idle and 2000 rpm oil pressure to make sure it is correct to the service manual.
No sweats on your comment, takes quite a bit to get me. Now correct me if I am wrong, what you are describing on your first three lines is centering, here's how I understand it:
The lobes on the gerotor are being set concentric to a point, in this case the pinion crank center line. Alignment is the perpendicularity of the faces (ie. back cover, oil pump housing, gerotors, cam plate) to each other. Kind of like a sandwich, hope I make any sense.
The bolded last sentence I couldn't understand, can you elaborate please?
I completely agree on your second paragraph, tooling gets worn out and with that tolerances grow bigger. Their protocol might call for 100% check on every piece, but the machinist might not follow or their equipment be out of calibration. Whatever the case you are right, it gets cruddy one way or another. See my pics on the following post, you might find it interesting and let me know what you think.
I do not have a mechanical pressure gauge, will have to find a way or see if Craigslist have a cheap one for me to use. Not a bad way to double check.
Originally Posted by VDeuce
That is an early pump, made somewhere around the middle of 2016. Throw it in the garbage and get the latest version. Makre sure it is dated at minimum after 10/10/17. Later the better. Mine is dated 12/15/17 on the box.
If it were me I would get a dial indicator and base (Harbor Freight has them) and look at the crank runout as suggested above by RIPSAW.
What does the camplate look like? I would also expect scoring there.
So in summary:
Check crank runout
NEW oil pump and possibly camplate (depends on scoring)
Use M1450 alignment procedure
May want to flush case and oil pan (that metal had to go somewhere)
Change the oil
Change oil at 100, 500
For extra credit, lol, get a cheap borescope (like $30 or so) and look in the spark plug holes to see what the cylinders look like (mentioned in M1450)
One thing to be aware of when ordering the new pump - the parts diagrams show that there are multiple components to the pump. The common replacement seems to only include the scavenge side gerotors. It does not have the feed gerotors nor the backing plate, so you will need to apply due diligence to make sure you get everything including the feed side gerotors.
The casting number and date wheel code on your pump are pretty early production, so definitely get rid of it due to potential sumping concerns.
See pictures attached, crank runout roughly .003 which if I am correct it comes like that from factory. The camplate has no damage at all, the line I point out in the picture was there when I took the stock cam out. I passed my fingernail through it and cannot feel anything.
I do plan on flushing the oil a couple of times at the very least. Also taking the cam and camplate to work and give it a good clean. My question is when going back together, should I dip the camplate and oil pump assembly in clean oil? Or dab everything with assembly lube?
Got everything but the feed gerotor assembly, you were right, it is three different part numbers. The housing and scavenge gerotor is what was superseded hence the new part numbers. The back cover and feed gerotor assembly still have the old numbers. I cannot tell what the superseded change is, the old and new pump look identical. I can only assume the change is in the width where oil travels which changes the velocity of how oil runs.
Originally Posted by tbob
I never met a good motor guy that didn't loose a few,hope it all goes well.
Use assembly lube for the gerotors, liberally all around them (get the gears well to help initial prime), the pump walls and faces, the cam lobes, where the cam inserts into the bearing and camplate, the crank, lifters and rollers. Even pushrod tips. The manual also calls for assembly lube.
Make sure the scavenge o-ring and pump spigot it goes into, has a light coat of oil. Leave the feed o-ring (to camplate) un-lubed. Make sure the o-rings are installed correctly.
Complete new oil pump is on the way to slap in the bike. I have everything but the feed gerotor assembly, no Harley in town had it in stock but should be here in the mail tomorrow.
In the meantime I followed RIPSAW advise and took some measurement for comparison. I do not have a bore gauge or a tri mic so couldn't measure the ID of the housing nor the OD of the gerotors.
Main find is the housing depth compared to the thickness of gerotor is .001 off. Which I can only assume is intentionally done that way to compensate for the torque applied when oil pump bolts are tighten.
The old and the new pump look identical as well. The superseded pump consists of only the housing and scavenge gerotor. I am not sure of what the change was, only thing that comes to mind is that the engineers changed the thickness of the passages for oil velocity dispersion. Which in return would change the oil flow speed into and out the crank case. Hopefully someone can chime in and explain what the superseded pump change is.
Checked the runout (thanks again to RIPSAW) which comes in at .003 off, if I am not mistaken that is how it comes from factory. Again, hopefully someone can chime in and correct me if I am wrong.
The inner gerotor took a beating, the pictures speak for themselves. Again, VERY glad oil light came one before going kapoot, I would be a sad-sad boy had that happened. The whole oil pump is trashed, it will get cleaned up and make an accent piece out of it. A recessed piece to my oak wood coffee table perhaps.
When measurements were taken, I tried to be in the same spot in the new vs. old. Done to get the best possible result and comparison. Hardest one was the back cover as only one face is machined.
The cam do not show any excessive wear, lines, chaffing, grooves, etc. Very glad for that, same goes for the tappets which I forgot to snap a picture of. I will double check the alignment on the crank and cam sprockets once back in to make sure my washer thickness is still within tolerance.
My plan is to clean the parts in a solution at work, then dip the camplate and oil pump assembly in clean oil for assembly. Or should I use assembly lube? Cannot decide to be honest, opinions please?
Last edited by TAKITO SEXY; 03-18-2018 at 08:11 PM.
Thanks for the pics! There has definitely been some metal running through there, may be more going on I hate to say.
Some of the early '17s had issues with piston oilers coming loose due to low screw torque at the factory. Hope it didn't happen but have seen pics of a jet screw through a pump and it wasn't pretty.
Did you find any metal in the camchest? Did you remove the oil pan drain yet? Any metal? Did you replace the inner cam bearing? While you have the cam out, inspect the inner bearing rollers - are they all present?
The more I see that pic, the more I think there is something like a screw that got ingested in the scavenge side, would be consistent with a piston jet screw. I highly advise you to get a bore scope and see the cylinder condition.
Thanks for the pics! There has definitely been some metal running through there, may be more going on I hate to say.
Some of the early '17s had issues with piston oilers coming loose due to low screw torque at the factory. Hope it didn't happen but have seen pics of a jet screw through a pump and it wasn't pretty.
Did you find any metal in the camchest? Did you remove the oil pan drain yet? Any metal? Did you replace the inner cam bearing? While you have the cam out, inspect the inner bearing rollers - are they all present?
There's something more going in methinks.
Mine is a very early production bike, 09/16
Got the oil change services in the deal when first bought the bike. Included the 1k, 2.5k, 5k, 7.5k and 10k miles service. Figured if by the last service there was no problems then I would do the aftermarket Stage II, which I did now here I am.
I have yet to pull the plug, no shavings at all in the oil it has come out the cam chest, I still have all three small container of such oil. And I use a big spotlight when I am working on it so it would be very easy to spot the shine.
Inner bearing has been replaced with the one Fuel Moto sends in their kit.
03-17-2018, 12:59 AM
