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Wet sumping article

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  #1  
Old 05-17-2018, 01:22 PM
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Default Wet sumping article

https://www.cycleworld.com/v-twins-a...th-wet-sumping

Not sure what got him writing about it or where he's going with this but it may be a start to press exposure and solutions.
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:43 PM
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Something akin to wet-sumping occurred when the AMA in the 1980s created a spec roadracing class for the Harley-Davidson 883 Sportster. Bikes braking for turns smoked, until the late Don Tilley figured out how to make sure the scavenge oil pump could keep up with the action. Commenting on having being summoned to Milwaukee to share his special knowledge, he said, “Engineers aren’t real comfortable talking with fellas like me, who don’t have a bunch of college degrees.”

The engineers shouldn’t feel bad. When Detroit decided getting involved in NASCAR could sell a lot of cars, they swallowed their pride and sent their corporate jets to fetch in top racing talent like the late Smokey Yunick. Degreed engineers had zero experience with racing, and intelligent men like Yunick and Tilley had both the necessary experience and solutions that worked. That’s usually the way things go; practical people are the first to tackle emerging problems, and only then do science and engineering work out the whys and wherefores, then put the new knowledge into the next editions of their textbooks.
Interesting. I think we're seeing this same scenario play out before our eyes. At least with regards to the trans oil transfer issues.

Good article though. I'm glad someone in some mainstream media form is at least acknowledging the sumping issues.
 

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Old 05-17-2018, 02:44 PM
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I have both his motorcycle books (Top Dead Center & TDC 2) and he's the type of engineering/mechanic (like others here) that might help address the current M8 problems if given a chance. At least it's open now to discussion via comments in his article CW article.
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:20 PM
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I've come up with a new motto for our bikes:
Sumper Fi!
 
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:37 PM
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I had to reread the title after reading this excerpt to make sure I didn't click on a link that rhymed with 'Sumping'

"it lubricated, and was then lost through leakage, replaced only when the rider stroked the hand pump"
 
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Old 05-18-2018, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by PA1195
Not sure what got him writing about it or where he's going with this but it may be a start to press exposure and solutions.
On that thought, it seemed like one of two things. First was that he got some metrics for keywords for recent problems and found "sumping" high in list. So he did some research and wrote an article that would show up in search results. Or, he saw sumping and his research pointed out that it was nothing new.

What I learned is that wet-sumping isn't as simple as getting the oil out of the bottom of the sump. It would seem it gets pulled up and held there by moving parts. I'd love to see a computer simulation of this.
 
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Old 05-18-2018, 06:19 PM
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The funny thing about (most) engineers is that they think the design they just created, which is based entirely on theory and in computers or on paper, will be 100% the same in practice and in action.

This is rarely the case, and as the design increases in complexity, as does the percent chance the product will not follow the design in action.

BTW, not sure a lot of y'all read Cycleworld but he's kind of an icon when it comes to technical writing in the motorcycle world.
 
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Old 05-18-2018, 08:29 PM
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One thing he said that kind of struck me was about the flywheels being too close to the cases. I’m wondering if the flywheels on the 114” and 117” motors are a little bigger and that might be what makes them more prone to sumping?

Also when I was at Steve Cole’s shop he had some M8 cases split and he pointed out that the scraper in those cases wasn’t even tilted up to scrape the oil into the sump. There are other things he pointed out that contribute to sumping.
 
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Old 05-18-2018, 08:32 PM
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Another thing about Kevin's article is he's referencing racing motors. These are street motors having the issue, and they're not even ridden hard for the most part.

I'm ready to officially call Bullshit to the MoCo on their "one-million miles" worth of testing on the M8.
 
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Old 05-18-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by $tonecold
One thing he said that kind of struck me was about the flywheels being too close to the cases. I’m wondering if the flywheels on the 114” and 117” motors are a little bigger and that might be what makes them more prone to sumping?

Also when I was at Steve Cole’s shop he had some M8 cases split and he pointed out that the scraper in those cases wasn’t even tilted up to scrape the oil into the sump. There are other things he pointed out that contribute to sumping.
I know for a fact that the Evo I just build with the S&S case and stroker crank that the clearance around the flywheels was about 1/8", except at the back of the case where the cavity is for scraping oil to be scavenged by the oil pump, that was less than 1/16".
 


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