Lack of threads on Sumping these days. Issue fixed?
#241
11-15-2018, 11:54 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
I have no idea how many M8s have sumped. But based on following the issue for 3 model years, the experience of my dealerships and several others, the fact that my HDF and CVO mailboxes are constantly full with guys that experience sumping but would rather not post, 10 oil pump redesigns, 5+ versions of SB1450.... sumping is more likely to be in the 3-7% range for those bike owners that report it. I suspect the incidence is FAR greater of those owners that don’t report it or are clueless what sumping is.
#242
11-15-2018, 02:59 PM
Supporter
I'll throw my 2 cents in. My bike is an early 2017 CVO LTD bought new. At the time of purchase the only dealer mod was Rinehart slip ons. My first trip on this bike was 10,500 km, from Victoria BC Canada to Texas & back. No issues, no oil consumption, no oil transfer. (rode it like I stole it in all temps) After that trip & some local riding, I had the dealer install a Stage IV kit w/SE street tuner & new oil pump (curtesy of HD), along with a fullsak header that I had special ordered. I had appox 5500km on that build, when this last July while on a road trip to Edmonton AB, the engine sumped (riding 120/140 km/hr,(75-80 mph) in 25-28C temp, (75/80 deg). As luck would have it I was within site of a local dealer. I spoke with the service adviser & told him I was 95% sure my bike had just sumped.(major loss of power & excessive heat) I mentioned the service bulletin 1450 & I got a blank look, I don't think he'd ever heard of sumping? what to do? (At this point I'm 1000km away from home) I'm scheduled for 2 weeks of work in AB & was planning on heading to Sturgis after. Long story short, I called a buddy that had service experience with another dealer about 150km away in Red Deer AB, Gave them & quick call, mentioned my suspicions & they seemed knowledgeable. They came & picked up the bike, tore it down for inspection & called me with the results. Motor had sumped, the cause was loose oil jets? (I was told my bike was number 12 for sumping, but the causes for the sumping where not all the same) They replaced Crank, Rods, Pistons, Jugs, Oil pump (again) & Oil pan. They had the bike 2 weeks & put 350 km on it to break it in prior to me picking it up as they knew I was heading to Sturgis & then home (5500 km). I rode in high temps and RPM's at 3500/4000+ for hours at a time. Montana was 104 deg F when I passed through. No issues. Is it fixed for good? Who knows? Do I love my Stage IV CVO? Hell Yes. The dealer in Red Deer AB was top notch & went above & beyond in my books. And YES they did cover me under warranty up hear in the great white north lol. I'd like to mention the only reason I know anything about these M8 engines & their issues is because of this forum & all the people on it. So a BIG Thank You to all those that Post their experiences & knowledge. Cheers.
#243
11-16-2018, 02:58 PM
Not a Moderator!
I'll throw my 2 cents in. My bike is an early 2017 CVO LTD bought new. At the time of purchase the only dealer mod was Rinehart slip ons. My first trip on this bike was 10,500 km, from Victoria BC Canada to Texas & back. No issues, no oil consumption, no oil transfer. (rode it like I stole it in all temps) After that trip & some local riding, I had the dealer install a Stage IV kit w/SE street tuner & new oil pump (curtesy of HD), along with a fullsak header that I had special ordered. I had appox 5500km on that build, when this last July while on a road trip to Edmonton AB, the engine sumped (riding 120/140 km/hr,(75-80 mph) in 25-28C temp, (75/80 deg). As luck would have it I was within site of a local dealer. I spoke with the service adviser & told him I was 95% sure my bike had just sumped.(major loss of power & excessive heat) I mentioned the service bulletin 1450 & I got a blank look, I don't think he'd ever heard of sumping? what to do? (At this point I'm 1000km away from home) I'm scheduled for 2 weeks of work in AB & was planning on heading to Sturgis after. Long story short, I called a buddy that had service experience with another dealer about 150km away in Red Deer AB, Gave them & quick call, mentioned my suspicions & they seemed knowledgeable. They came & picked up the bike, tore it down for inspection & called me with the results. Motor had sumped, the cause was loose oil jets? (I was told my bike was number 12 for sumping, but the causes for the sumping where not all the same) They replaced Crank, Rods, Pistons, Jugs, Oil pump (again) & Oil pan. They had the bike 2 weeks & put 350 km on it to break it in prior to me picking it up as they knew I was heading to Sturgis & then home (5500 km). I rode in high temps and RPM's at 3500/4000+ for hours at a time. Montana was 104 deg F when I passed through. No issues. Is it fixed for good? Who knows? Do I love my Stage IV CVO? Hell Yes. The dealer in Red Deer AB was top notch & went above & beyond in my books. And YES they did cover me under warranty up hear in the great white north lol. I'd like to mention the only reason I know anything about these M8 engines & their issues is because of this forum & all the people on it. So a BIG Thank You to all those that Post their experiences & knowledge. Cheers.
I'm familiar with the Red Deer dealer (bought my Road King there) but I'd be interested to know which Edmonton dealer was clueless about sumping....so I can avoid them.
#247
11-18-2018, 01:28 PM
Back from a long weekend of fun. Good to see eveyone (ok mostly everyone) keeping the frothy breathless attacks to a modicum.
To those throwing around “legal” terms (as if they have a law degree from their local Community College), let me share a hypothetical for your consideration.
If anyone buys a new HD bike (no bank involved so they hold the title to keep things simple), they can do whatever they want to or with their bike. Strip it down to the frame and sell the parts. Ship it into outerspace. Install a tuner, change the cams, install whatever exhaust they want. Anything and everything is legal for that property owner to do to their bike under all the laws of the US.
However if they want to operate that new bike on public roads, the new bike must meet 2 requirements:
1) The motorcycle must comply with the 70’s Clean Air Act regarding the exhaust (it must be EPA-approved)
2) The motorcycle must meet the regulatory requirements for the State its registered to operate in..
#1 is a “toothless” regulation because there is no Federal enforcement agency at the individual level. The EPA relies on the State inspection authorities to enforce their 40 yr old exhaust regulations. Many States don’t inspect motorcycle exhausts and many States don’t even inspect motorcycles at all. So for many bike owners this regulation is irrelevant from a legal perspective.
So if that hypothetical new bike owner completely modifies their bike and then decides to return that bike back to factory standards, they have every right to do so. They have no obligation to notify ANYONE of the changes they made to THEIR property.
So continue the hypothetical to the next step of warranty coverage under the terms of the manufacturer. The owner of that bike can make whatever changes they wish and can also REVERSE any changes they wish. At ANY time. The manufacturer can decide to make whatever exceptions to their warranty that they want or require 100% compliance to the letter of the terms outlined in their Owner’s manual at the time the bike is being serviced.
The owner has NO OBLIGATION to notify the manufacturer of ANY CHANGES that have been made to their bike. Its also the right of the manufacturer to deny any claims for non-compliance to the warranty terms. Likewise the Manufacturer has NO OBLIGATION to notify the bike owner that the factory warranty was voided due to observations made, for example, during an oil change or other basic service.
Regarding the 2016 HD Consent Decree, there are absolutely NO obligations on ANY bike owner or for that matter on the privately owned HD dealerships (although there are certainly franchise requirements between the dealership and HD). The only legal obligation on HD (regarding tuners and exhaust) is that they must void warranties on any bike where the warranty is in effect and HD HAS INFORMATION that a non-EPA approved tuner was used on a bike (regardless of whether a warranty claim IS or ISN’T being made).
So for those getting breathless and foaming at the mouth about “fraud” and lies, you need to go back to your Community College and get your law degree updated. We have the RIGHT as property owners to make any and all changes we want to our bikes... at any time... for any reason.... and we have the legal right to return any of our bikes back to factory standards... at any time.... for any reason. Compliance to warranty terms is solely determined by the manufacturer and no bike owner has any legal obligation to inform the manufacturer of ANY changes they may or may not have made to their bike.
US laws protect the property rights of anyone that buys a new bike and wishes to make whatever changes they wish to their bike. The requirements are also clear if you want to legally operate that bike on public roads. And lastly the requirements are also clear if you wish to make a warranty claim that the Manufacturer has the discretion to approve or deny a warranty claim based on their inspection. No bike owner is EVER obligated to notify their dealership or the manufacturer of any changes they may or may not have made to their property.
So to the guys getting breathless about making changes to a bike and then having warranty coverage on that same bike... its time to “catch your breath” and come back to Earth. We have the right to make whatever changes we wish and we have NO obligation to inform anyone of the changes we make to our property.
To those throwing around “legal” terms (as if they have a law degree from their local Community College), let me share a hypothetical for your consideration.
If anyone buys a new HD bike (no bank involved so they hold the title to keep things simple), they can do whatever they want to or with their bike. Strip it down to the frame and sell the parts. Ship it into outerspace. Install a tuner, change the cams, install whatever exhaust they want. Anything and everything is legal for that property owner to do to their bike under all the laws of the US.
However if they want to operate that new bike on public roads, the new bike must meet 2 requirements:
1) The motorcycle must comply with the 70’s Clean Air Act regarding the exhaust (it must be EPA-approved)
2) The motorcycle must meet the regulatory requirements for the State its registered to operate in..
#1 is a “toothless” regulation because there is no Federal enforcement agency at the individual level. The EPA relies on the State inspection authorities to enforce their 40 yr old exhaust regulations. Many States don’t inspect motorcycle exhausts and many States don’t even inspect motorcycles at all. So for many bike owners this regulation is irrelevant from a legal perspective.
So if that hypothetical new bike owner completely modifies their bike and then decides to return that bike back to factory standards, they have every right to do so. They have no obligation to notify ANYONE of the changes they made to THEIR property.
So continue the hypothetical to the next step of warranty coverage under the terms of the manufacturer. The owner of that bike can make whatever changes they wish and can also REVERSE any changes they wish. At ANY time. The manufacturer can decide to make whatever exceptions to their warranty that they want or require 100% compliance to the letter of the terms outlined in their Owner’s manual at the time the bike is being serviced.
The owner has NO OBLIGATION to notify the manufacturer of ANY CHANGES that have been made to their bike. Its also the right of the manufacturer to deny any claims for non-compliance to the warranty terms. Likewise the Manufacturer has NO OBLIGATION to notify the bike owner that the factory warranty was voided due to observations made, for example, during an oil change or other basic service.
Regarding the 2016 HD Consent Decree, there are absolutely NO obligations on ANY bike owner or for that matter on the privately owned HD dealerships (although there are certainly franchise requirements between the dealership and HD). The only legal obligation on HD (regarding tuners and exhaust) is that they must void warranties on any bike where the warranty is in effect and HD HAS INFORMATION that a non-EPA approved tuner was used on a bike (regardless of whether a warranty claim IS or ISN’T being made).
So for those getting breathless and foaming at the mouth about “fraud” and lies, you need to go back to your Community College and get your law degree updated. We have the RIGHT as property owners to make any and all changes we want to our bikes... at any time... for any reason.... and we have the legal right to return any of our bikes back to factory standards... at any time.... for any reason. Compliance to warranty terms is solely determined by the manufacturer and no bike owner has any legal obligation to inform the manufacturer of ANY changes they may or may not have made to their bike.
US laws protect the property rights of anyone that buys a new bike and wishes to make whatever changes they wish to their bike. The requirements are also clear if you want to legally operate that bike on public roads. And lastly the requirements are also clear if you wish to make a warranty claim that the Manufacturer has the discretion to approve or deny a warranty claim based on their inspection. No bike owner is EVER obligated to notify their dealership or the manufacturer of any changes they may or may not have made to their property.
So to the guys getting breathless about making changes to a bike and then having warranty coverage on that same bike... its time to “catch your breath” and come back to Earth. We have the right to make whatever changes we wish and we have NO obligation to inform anyone of the changes we make to our property.
Last edited by Heatwave; 11-18-2018 at 03:30 PM.
#248
11-18-2018, 02:59 PM
Club Member
#249
11-18-2018, 03:20 PM
Not a Moderator!
#250
11-18-2018, 04:32 PM
Grand HDF Member
Translation: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
You don't get to make up your own meaning for words. And your intent was clear as day. You destroyed evidence of what you had done in order to mislead Harley, and in your recitation above you conveniently left out the part about "if Harley OR THEIR DEALERS have any knowledge that a tuner was used." So if you're saying that your evidence--hiding spree and buying and installing of a replacement ECU was done without any dealer's knowledge at all even after the first engine had sumped (which I doubt any reasonable person would believe) then ... Whatever floats your boat. You did what you did, you are what you are, and everyone can see exactly what transpired.
By the way, the definition of you having done something is not dependent on whether you got caught.
You don't get to make up your own meaning for words. And your intent was clear as day. You destroyed evidence of what you had done in order to mislead Harley, and in your recitation above you conveniently left out the part about "if Harley OR THEIR DEALERS have any knowledge that a tuner was used." So if you're saying that your evidence--hiding spree and buying and installing of a replacement ECU was done without any dealer's knowledge at all even after the first engine had sumped (which I doubt any reasonable person would believe) then ... Whatever floats your boat. You did what you did, you are what you are, and everyone can see exactly what transpired.
By the way, the definition of you having done something is not dependent on whether you got caught.