Redline vs. Amsoil
#21
11-14-2017, 05:44 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
20w60..,the bigger the gap between those two numbers, the less actual oil in the bottle...in order to make a "multi-weight" oil, you have to add chemicals to force that 60 weight oil to act like 20 weight oil at 100 degrees.
If riding conditions dictate a 60 weight oil, you'd probably be better off with a straight 50 weight oil in the engine.
If riding conditions dictate a 60 weight oil, you'd probably be better off with a straight 50 weight oil in the engine.
#22
11-14-2017, 09:02 AM
Yes, it is true. You are buying a 1qt bottle....NOT 1qt of oil plus whatever fluid amount of chemicals is added to the oil to make it multi-viscosity, "shear resistant", ect.,the more "stuff" (i.e. ZDDP) is added to the oil, the less actual oil you have in that 1qt bottle.
>"why do all major oil companies make multi-viscosity oil?"
Because if it's 40 degrees out and you have straight 50w oil in the bike, it will run dry at startup for a considerable length of time. Multi-viscosity exists because engines, and the oil in them, are not 212 degrees (operating temp) the instant you turn the key.
20W50
20W = the flow characteristics when the oil is cold.
50 = the flow characteristics when the oil is at operating temperature (212 degrees)
www.belray.com/what-exactly-do-multi-visc-designations-mean
>"Some guys use Amsoil, some use Mobile 1 and some of us use Redline"
All good oils. For me, it's more about the dirt that accumulates in the oil rather than the "best" of those oils...Mobile1 15w50 is recommended for the Harley crank and it is 1/3 the cost of Amsoil, which means I can change it 3x as often as the Amsoil for the same cost...
No matter how "good" the oil is; if there's contaminants in it, it's causing wear...and the only way to get out those contaminants is to change the oil.
Harley's best oil filter allows 40 micron particles to pass; only with multiple passes does it catch them and other particles down to 5 micron. That's better than nothing, but still, those particles are causing wear and a tight paper filter offers a fair amount of resistance to oil flow, holds water, and can fill up causing the the bypass to open...Stainless mesh, reusable filters are the only way to go if you really want the best oil filter you can buy...I use a K&P.
#23
11-14-2017, 10:55 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
>"If what you say is true"
Yes, it is true. You are buying a 1qt bottle....NOT 1qt of oil plus whatever fluid amount of chemicals is added to the oil to make it multi-viscosity, "shear resistant", ect.,the more "stuff" (i.e. ZDDP) is added to the oil, the less actual oil you have in that 1qt bottle.
>"why do all major oil companies make multi-viscosity oil?"
Because if it's 40 degrees out and you have straight 50w oil in the bike, it will run dry at startup for a considerable length of time. Multi-viscosity exists because engines, and the oil in them, are not 212 degrees (operating temp) the instant you turn the key.
20W50
20W = the flow characteristics when the oil is cold.
50 = the flow characteristics when the oil is at operating temperature (212 degrees)
www.belray.com/what-exactly-do-multi-visc-designations-mean
>"Some guys use Amsoil, some use Mobile 1 and some of us use Redline"
All good oils. For me, it's more about the dirt that accumulates in the oil rather than the "best" of those oils...Mobile1 15w50 is recommended for the Harley crank and it is 1/3 the cost of Amsoil, which means I can change it 3x as often as the Amsoil for the same cost...
No matter how "good" the oil is; if there's contaminants in it, it's causing wear...and the only way to get out those contaminants is to change the oil.
Harley's best oil filter allows 40 micron particles to pass; only with multiple passes does it catch them and other particles down to 5 micron. That's better than nothing, but still, those particles are causing wear and a tight paper filter offers a fair amount of resistance to oil flow, holds water, and can fill up causing the the bypass to open...Stainless mesh, reusable filters are the only way to go if you really want the best oil filter you can buy...I use a K&P.
Yes, it is true. You are buying a 1qt bottle....NOT 1qt of oil plus whatever fluid amount of chemicals is added to the oil to make it multi-viscosity, "shear resistant", ect.,the more "stuff" (i.e. ZDDP) is added to the oil, the less actual oil you have in that 1qt bottle.
>"why do all major oil companies make multi-viscosity oil?"
Because if it's 40 degrees out and you have straight 50w oil in the bike, it will run dry at startup for a considerable length of time. Multi-viscosity exists because engines, and the oil in them, are not 212 degrees (operating temp) the instant you turn the key.
20W50
20W = the flow characteristics when the oil is cold.
50 = the flow characteristics when the oil is at operating temperature (212 degrees)
www.belray.com/what-exactly-do-multi-visc-designations-mean
>"Some guys use Amsoil, some use Mobile 1 and some of us use Redline"
All good oils. For me, it's more about the dirt that accumulates in the oil rather than the "best" of those oils...Mobile1 15w50 is recommended for the Harley crank and it is 1/3 the cost of Amsoil, which means I can change it 3x as often as the Amsoil for the same cost...
No matter how "good" the oil is; if there's contaminants in it, it's causing wear...and the only way to get out those contaminants is to change the oil.
Harley's best oil filter allows 40 micron particles to pass; only with multiple passes does it catch them and other particles down to 5 micron. That's better than nothing, but still, those particles are causing wear and a tight paper filter offers a fair amount of resistance to oil flow, holds water, and can fill up causing the the bypass to open...Stainless mesh, reusable filters are the only way to go if you really want the best oil filter you can buy...I use a K&P.
#24
11-14-2017, 01:41 PM
Road Master
Redline
Amazon has the best deal around on their 20w50 power pack with separate engine, primary and tranny oils
and throw in a funnel, hat and their fuel injection cleaner that really works unlike most. Remember that newer
bikes take 38 oz in the primary so you'll have to buy an additional extra quart.
Last edited by lightweight bob; 11-14-2017 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Added info +++
#25
11-16-2017, 12:39 PM
Road Captain
Oil threads are really funny. It's tough to imagine there is so much misinformation out there and people sharing said misinformation as fact when many assertions are not found in fact.
Yes when you buy 1qt of oil you only get about 95% of that as "oil". The additives package is actually good for both lubricity and viscosity. As a matter of fact, an oil that has no additives (SA) would not properly protect a modern engine, and offers substantially less protection than any modern oil. One multi viscosity oil may or may not contain more or less actual oil than another, but that is largely irrelevant because the additives that are not oil are good for your engine, not the other way around.
Most engine wear, rated by amount of wear vs. run time, happens when the engine is cold ... that is not at running temp. Starting a cold engine, even if it's 80 degrees out, with 60wt or 70wt oil in it causes more wear than if one used a 20W60 multi viscosity oil. Using a 20W60oil you get all of the benefits of 20W when you start cold, and all of the benefits of 60wt when it's hot. Best of both worlds. The only downside is that multi viscosity oils will break down faster than single weight oils in a shearing environment. This isn't an issue if you change your oil according to the service recommendations. If you were that **** about it, then get the oil tested when you drain it. Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint. The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best.
Yes when you buy 1qt of oil you only get about 95% of that as "oil". The additives package is actually good for both lubricity and viscosity. As a matter of fact, an oil that has no additives (SA) would not properly protect a modern engine, and offers substantially less protection than any modern oil. One multi viscosity oil may or may not contain more or less actual oil than another, but that is largely irrelevant because the additives that are not oil are good for your engine, not the other way around.
Most engine wear, rated by amount of wear vs. run time, happens when the engine is cold ... that is not at running temp. Starting a cold engine, even if it's 80 degrees out, with 60wt or 70wt oil in it causes more wear than if one used a 20W60 multi viscosity oil. Using a 20W60oil you get all of the benefits of 20W when you start cold, and all of the benefits of 60wt when it's hot. Best of both worlds. The only downside is that multi viscosity oils will break down faster than single weight oils in a shearing environment. This isn't an issue if you change your oil according to the service recommendations. If you were that **** about it, then get the oil tested when you drain it. Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint. The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best.
#26
11-16-2017, 12:50 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
Oil threads are really funny. It's tough to imagine there is so much misinformation out there and people sharing said misinformation as fact when many assertions are not found in fact.
Yes when you buy 1qt of oil you only get about 95% of that as "oil". The additives package is actually good for both lubricity and viscosity. As a matter of fact, an oil that has no additives (SA) would not properly protect a modern engine, and offers substantially less protection than any modern oil. One multi viscosity oil may or may not contain more or less actual oil than another, but that is largely irrelevant because the additives that are not oil are good for your engine, not the other way around.
Most engine wear, rated by amount of wear vs. run time, happens when the engine is cold ... that is not at running temp. Starting a cold engine, even if it's 80 degrees out, with 60wt or 70wt oil in it causes more wear than if one used a 20W60 multi viscosity oil. Using a 20W60oil you get all of the benefits of 20W when you start cold, and all of the benefits of 60wt when it's hot. Best of both worlds. The only downside is that multi viscosity oils will break down faster than single weight oils in a shearing environment. This isn't an issue if you change your oil according to the service recommendations. If you were that **** about it, then get the oil tested when you drain it. Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint. The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best.
Yes when you buy 1qt of oil you only get about 95% of that as "oil". The additives package is actually good for both lubricity and viscosity. As a matter of fact, an oil that has no additives (SA) would not properly protect a modern engine, and offers substantially less protection than any modern oil. One multi viscosity oil may or may not contain more or less actual oil than another, but that is largely irrelevant because the additives that are not oil are good for your engine, not the other way around.
Most engine wear, rated by amount of wear vs. run time, happens when the engine is cold ... that is not at running temp. Starting a cold engine, even if it's 80 degrees out, with 60wt or 70wt oil in it causes more wear than if one used a 20W60 multi viscosity oil. Using a 20W60oil you get all of the benefits of 20W when you start cold, and all of the benefits of 60wt when it's hot. Best of both worlds. The only downside is that multi viscosity oils will break down faster than single weight oils in a shearing environment. This isn't an issue if you change your oil according to the service recommendations. If you were that **** about it, then get the oil tested when you drain it. Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint. The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best.
#27
11-17-2017, 09:24 AM
Oil threads are really funny. It's tough to imagine as fact when many assertions are not found in fact.
Yes when you buy 1qt of oil you only get about 95% of that as "oil". The additives package is actually good for both lubricity and viscosity. As a matter of fact, an oil that has no additives (SA) would not properly protect a modern engine, and offers substantially less protection than any modern oil. One multi viscosity oil may or may not contain more or less actual oil than another, but that is largely irrelevant because the additives that are not oil are good for your engine, not the other way around.
Most engine wear, rated by amount of wear vs. run time, happens when the engine is cold ... that is not at running temp. Starting a cold engine, even if it's 80 degrees out, with 60wt or 70wt oil in it causes more wear than if one used a 20W60 multi viscosity oil. Using a 20W60oil you get all of the benefits of 20W when you start cold, and all of the benefits of 60wt when it's hot. Best of both worlds. The only downside is that multi viscosity oils will break down faster than single weight oils in a shearing environment. This isn't an issue if you change your oil according to the service recommendations. If you were that **** about it, then get the oil tested when you drain it. Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint. The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best.
Yes when you buy 1qt of oil you only get about 95% of that as "oil". The additives package is actually good for both lubricity and viscosity. As a matter of fact, an oil that has no additives (SA) would not properly protect a modern engine, and offers substantially less protection than any modern oil. One multi viscosity oil may or may not contain more or less actual oil than another, but that is largely irrelevant because the additives that are not oil are good for your engine, not the other way around.
Most engine wear, rated by amount of wear vs. run time, happens when the engine is cold ... that is not at running temp. Starting a cold engine, even if it's 80 degrees out, with 60wt or 70wt oil in it causes more wear than if one used a 20W60 multi viscosity oil. Using a 20W60oil you get all of the benefits of 20W when you start cold, and all of the benefits of 60wt when it's hot. Best of both worlds. The only downside is that multi viscosity oils will break down faster than single weight oils in a shearing environment. This isn't an issue if you change your oil according to the service recommendations. If you were that **** about it, then get the oil tested when you drain it. Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint. The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best.
BS.
Facts Stated:
1. A quart of oil is not 100% oil.
2. Some of that quart is friction fighting chemicals = good with bad added in...ZDDP adds to carbon buildup and ruins catalytic convertors..which is why motorcycle oils carry a 21 year old, obsolete, API rating.
3. Some of that quart is "viscosity improving" chemicals = good AND bad! - bad because those chemicals take the place of other "good" chemicals and "viscosity improving" chemicals will shear, turning 60 weight oil into a 40 weight oil fairly quickly.
4. HARLEY recommends straight weight oil under certain conditions! This is because the initial cold startup wear is FAR LESS damaging than engine wear due to hot oil that has sheared to 30 or 40 weight.
5. When it comes to "Viscosity additives"...the less, the better. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
6. " Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint".
This is mostly true with a car or liquid cooled cycle, but we're talking GIANT, air cooled, Harler's here. Viscosity is CRITICAL...Go read the thread where folks post their oil reports...time and again, oil with just 3/4/5000 miles, has sheared to 40 weight or less.
7. Changing often is better than relying on "the best", and most expensive, oil to protect against wear for extended intervals.
I've stopped at 7, but there are many more facts stated...and anyone that reads through this post and comes away with only one "fact" of "clean oil is best" has a serious reading comprehension issue.
#28
11-17-2017, 11:40 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
"The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best"
BS.
Facts Stated:
1. A quart of oil is not 100% oil.
2. Some of that quart is friction fighting chemicals = good with bad added in...ZDDP adds to carbon buildup and ruins catalytic convertors..which is why motorcycle oils carry a 21 year old, obsolete, API rating.
3. Some of that quart is "viscosity improving" chemicals = good AND bad! - bad because those chemicals take the place of other "good" chemicals and "viscosity improving" chemicals will shear, turning 60 weight oil into a 40 weight oil fairly quickly.
4. HARLEY recommends straight weight oil under certain conditions! This is because the initial cold startup wear is FAR LESS damaging than engine wear due to hot oil that has sheared to 30 or 40 weight.
5. When it comes to "Viscosity additives"...the less, the better. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
6. " Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint".
This is mostly true with a car or liquid cooled cycle, but we're talking GIANT, air cooled, Harler's here. Viscosity is CRITICAL...Go read the thread where folks post their oil reports...time and again, oil with just 3/4/5000 miles, has sheared to 40 weight or less.
7. Changing often is better than relying on "the best", and most expensive, oil to protect against wear for extended intervals.
I've stopped at 7, but there are many more facts stated...and anyone that reads through this post and comes away with only one "fact" of "clean oil is best" has a serious reading comprehension issue.
BS.
Facts Stated:
1. A quart of oil is not 100% oil.
2. Some of that quart is friction fighting chemicals = good with bad added in...ZDDP adds to carbon buildup and ruins catalytic convertors..which is why motorcycle oils carry a 21 year old, obsolete, API rating.
3. Some of that quart is "viscosity improving" chemicals = good AND bad! - bad because those chemicals take the place of other "good" chemicals and "viscosity improving" chemicals will shear, turning 60 weight oil into a 40 weight oil fairly quickly.
4. HARLEY recommends straight weight oil under certain conditions! This is because the initial cold startup wear is FAR LESS damaging than engine wear due to hot oil that has sheared to 30 or 40 weight.
5. When it comes to "Viscosity additives"...the less, the better. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
6. " Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint".
This is mostly true with a car or liquid cooled cycle, but we're talking GIANT, air cooled, Harler's here. Viscosity is CRITICAL...Go read the thread where folks post their oil reports...time and again, oil with just 3/4/5000 miles, has sheared to 40 weight or less.
7. Changing often is better than relying on "the best", and most expensive, oil to protect against wear for extended intervals.
I've stopped at 7, but there are many more facts stated...and anyone that reads through this post and comes away with only one "fact" of "clean oil is best" has a serious reading comprehension issue.
A friend of mine has 147,000 miles on his 2001 heritage and has never used any oil except Castrol 20w50 dino oil. And he routinely changes at 5000 mile intervals and his bike doesn't use or leak any oil. Not looking for a pizzing match here, but it seems like some guys like splitting hairs when it comes to which oil to use.
#29
11-17-2017, 12:26 PM
All 7 things you say might be true, however my first question to you is: why do most cars/motorcycles run multi-viscosity oils? 2nd question: how many Harleys have you heard of that have blown motors due to poor or over-used oil? I've never heard of any except from cam tensioners falling apart.
A friend of mine has 147,000 miles on his 2001 heritage and has never used any oil except Castrol 20w50 dino oil. And he routinely changes at 5000 mile intervals and his bike doesn't use or leak any oil. Not looking for a pizzing match here, but it seems like some guys like splitting hairs when it comes to which oil to use.
A friend of mine has 147,000 miles on his 2001 heritage and has never used any oil except Castrol 20w50 dino oil. And he routinely changes at 5000 mile intervals and his bike doesn't use or leak any oil. Not looking for a pizzing match here, but it seems like some guys like splitting hairs when it comes to which oil to use.
It's a necessity due to wide variations in start-up temperature; but it is not ideal. Ideal is a straight weight oil; the reason is because "viscosity modifiers" do not lubricate, they have short lives, and as they age, your high viscosity rating number drops..you start with 60 weight and end with 30 weight.
If you look at car oil, they are getting away from the wide xWx ratings - 5w20 instead of 5w30 or 10w40.
2. No one is saying if you use nothing but "Castrol 20w50 dino oil" you're going to ruin your engine. We're just discussing "what is best" for the engine. Even Harley gets into the game by recommending different weights of oils, including straight weights, for different situations.
Ideal = Straight weight
If the environment doesn't allow for "ideal", then the tightest xWx ratings are next best.
The original poster, to me, was looking for the "best" route to go; my suggestion is any good oil, the proper viscosity rating for the situation, and change it often.
Great read, for those ****-enough, regarding "multi-viscocity" oil:
Multi-grade motor oils perform a great service not being too thick at cold startup to prevent engine wear by providing more instantaneous oil flow to critical engine parts. However, there is a draw back. These additives shear back in high heat or during high shear force operation and break down causing some sludging. What's worse is once the additive begins to be depleted the motor oil no long resists thinning so now you have a thinner motor oil at 210 degrees. Your 10W-30 motor oil can easily become a 10W-20 or even a SAE 10 (10W-10) motor oil. I don't have to tell you why that is bad. The more VI additives the worse the problem which is why auto manufacturers decided to steer car owners away from motor oils loaded with VI additives like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 viscosity"
Last edited by HDSlimJim; 11-17-2017 at 12:28 PM.
#30
11-17-2017, 06:07 PM
Stellar HDF Member
"The only factual recommendation stated here is that contaminants are bad. Clean oil is best"
BS.
Facts Stated:
1. A quart of oil is not 100% oil.
2. Some of that quart is friction fighting chemicals = good with bad added in...ZDDP adds to carbon buildup and ruins catalytic convertors..which is why motorcycle oils carry a 21 year old, obsolete, API rating.
3. Some of that quart is "viscosity improving" chemicals = good AND bad! - bad because those chemicals take the place of other "good" chemicals and "viscosity improving" chemicals will shear, turning 60 weight oil into a 40 weight oil fairly quickly.
4. HARLEY recommends straight weight oil under certain conditions! This is because the initial cold startup wear is FAR LESS damaging than engine wear due to hot oil that has sheared to 30 or 40 weight.
5. When it comes to "Viscosity additives"...the less, the better. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
6. " Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint".
This is mostly true with a car or liquid cooled cycle, but we're talking GIANT, air cooled, Harler's here. Viscosity is CRITICAL...Go read the thread where folks post their oil reports...time and again, oil with just 3/4/5000 miles, has sheared to 40 weight or less.
7. Changing often is better than relying on "the best", and most expensive, oil to protect against wear for extended intervals.
I've stopped at 7, but there are many more facts stated...and anyone that reads through this post and comes away with only one "fact" of "clean oil is best" has a serious reading comprehension issue.
BS.
Facts Stated:
1. A quart of oil is not 100% oil.
2. Some of that quart is friction fighting chemicals = good with bad added in...ZDDP adds to carbon buildup and ruins catalytic convertors..which is why motorcycle oils carry a 21 year old, obsolete, API rating.
3. Some of that quart is "viscosity improving" chemicals = good AND bad! - bad because those chemicals take the place of other "good" chemicals and "viscosity improving" chemicals will shear, turning 60 weight oil into a 40 weight oil fairly quickly.
4. HARLEY recommends straight weight oil under certain conditions! This is because the initial cold startup wear is FAR LESS damaging than engine wear due to hot oil that has sheared to 30 or 40 weight.
5. When it comes to "Viscosity additives"...the less, the better. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
6. " Most modern synthetic oils will last well past the recommended service intervals from both a viscosity and lubricity standpoint".
This is mostly true with a car or liquid cooled cycle, but we're talking GIANT, air cooled, Harler's here. Viscosity is CRITICAL...Go read the thread where folks post their oil reports...time and again, oil with just 3/4/5000 miles, has sheared to 40 weight or less.
7. Changing often is better than relying on "the best", and most expensive, oil to protect against wear for extended intervals.
I've stopped at 7, but there are many more facts stated...and anyone that reads through this post and comes away with only one "fact" of "clean oil is best" has a serious reading comprehension issue.
Use what your manual says and change when it says to.
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