Spinning Starter
 

Before you think "Oh no, not again", I found some great information in the threads already covering this. The weak battery is definitely a possibility and I'll flip the washer in the solenoid for good measure.
I'm posting this because I came across something puzzling during my troubleshooting. With the battery out of the bike and all 3 wires to the solenoid disconnected, I read an open circuit between the main input and output posts on the solenoid. I connected the cable from the starter to the solenoid (other two wires still disconnected) and the circuit closed. I don't understand how that can happen - especially when the battery is out of the bike.

Gary, You should read open between the battery and starter posts on the solenoid. These are the 2 posts the copper washer you plan to flip connects when you hit the starter button. When you connected the cable from the solenoid to the starter you should still be open because the solenoid is not enregized pushing the copper washer to the posts. If you are closed it would suggest your starter is shorting to ground and the positive battery cable is either touching the frame or has a short to ground. What I am trying to say is connecting the starter to the solenoid should not create a connection unless you are creating a connection through grounded or shorted wiring and starter

early / late shovels and even some early evos had this starter arrangment - and if you have a worn clutch hub gear or a china inner or outer primary the alignment is subject to being inncorrect /

did you just have it apart and after puting it back together this happened ???? its an align issue

if its been sitting a while and this happened it dry and the starter linkage is sticking

or the wiring is not correct in some way - and or the starter relay is bad and or the ground is not good on it if its a metal one E / shovel type lots of things / need more info to help - jz

Garry, are you checking this with the wires disconnected from the solenoid itself so there is no wire connected at the solenoid except the wire to the starter motor? And is the solenoid still installed on the bike (grounded)? You have piqued my interest with this. Has the solenoid been rebuilt or has anyone been in it and possibly switched positions of the short and long copper studs? Is the starter motor connected to the short stud?
It's been a while since I have looked at the wiring inside the solenoid so I have to poke around to gather some info before I may be able to figure this out. What I am trying to say is it MIGHT be that this is not a short. Note that I said "MIGHT." Are you using an ohmmeter to check for continuity? If so, are you reading any ohms at all or a zero reading?
I hope you figure it out quickly. I'll try to help if you can give me answers to my questions. I gotta do some research on the solenoid while I wait for your answers and I gotta go back to work for a few days so I may not get back to you in a very timely manner. Good luck.
<edit> Shoot, I just realized you said the starter is spinning. Are you saying your starter motor is running when you push the button but that it is not cranking the engine over?

my guess was as soon as the battery is connected it spins the motor BUT the same thing 20 different words can be used to describe it -- a phone call and it can be sorted in 2 min

Yeah, I guess we will wait and see what additional info is offered.

I don't think it can be a short through the starter to ground because the cable from the battery was not on the input terminal. I won't say that the starter isn't shorting to ground which I'll check, but there was no path for it to get to the solenoid's input terminal.
It's got the original inner primary, a barnett clutch, and a NOS outer primary. All of that has been together for at least the last 3 years and has been working fine. It is a belt drive primary so it's dry in there...lubrication may be called for.
I failed to mention in my first post that the bendix pulled back. When the starter was spinning it was not engaged with the ring gear.
Megawatt - yes, I'm using an ohmmeter. With both wires disconnected it reads infinity. With the cable to the starter installed, I don't remember exactly but it was in the couple hundred ohms range, not a hard short.
The starter motor disengaged from the ring gear after the engined started but kept spinning. I killed the engine and turned the key off and it kept spinning. I had to disconnect the battery to stop it.
I think I answered most of the questions...thanks for the input guys.

Oh, so that's what it is doing.
You are on the right track checking the contacts inside the solenoid. Sounds like the contactor plate has somehow come loose in there and stayed on the motor contacts. Who knows what else it is touching in there since it is free to rattle around.
You may be able to fix it or maybe it's time for a new solenoid. Make sure the battery cable goes on the long stud and (of course) the starter cable on the short stud.

Have you pulled the outer primary yet?...I bet when you do....you find the circled part, bent, worn-out, damaged, jammed, or all of the above...it will keep the solenoid pushed all the way in and make connection..even with the battery disconnected.



http://i51.tinypic.com/16lg10x.jpg

Easy enough. During my reading yesterday I saw a lot of people have problems with the Accel solenoid (which I also have:icon_confused:). Any suggestions on brands? I assume Drag Specialties is also imported crap.

Thanks Tom - No I haven't pulled it apart yet, but I'll get one regardless since I'm going shopping anyway...after 32 years it's probably ready for a break.

no one has an american made one anymore

they are all garbage

Yeah - I've experienced that most recently on trying to get brake calipers. It sucks when you have something you're trying to keep stock.

I bought an All-Balls starter from Eastern Performance and a guy I spoke with at Eastern Performance sold me a solenoid imported from Brazil that they reccomended (at least, at the time they did).
Give them a call, maybe they have a reccomendation. It worked okay for me until I took the solenoid off the bike and went with a different set-up.

At the time indeed...just talked to them and all they carry now is Accel, so Accel it is I guess. Thanks.
It's still bugging me how just hooking up the wire from the starter closed the circuit. Tonight I'm going to check everything for a short to ground to see if it's coming in through a back door. That would be Murphy's Law in action big time because it would require a short from the starter to ground AND a short from the solenoid input to ground.

Garry - Disconnect the battery and startercables from the old solenoid,

1 - check continuity between the terminals - Continuity suggests the copper washer inside the solenoid is stuck and possibly arc welded to the copper terminals. Disassemble the solenoid, (Need to Pull Outer Primary cover) remove the plunger spring and flat copper washer, sand the surface of the copper washer smooth and clean the heads of the terminals. Place cleanest smoothest side of copper washer into solenoid for making the connection.

2 - check continuity between the starter cable end unhooked from the solenoid and the frame or ground - continuity suggests the cable or starter is shorted to ground. Disconnect the cable from the starter and check continuity from starter battery terminal to ground - continuity would suggest the armature needs polished, segments need seperated, and brushes need replaced

My bet is you have an interaction between 2 issues;
1 - Starter armature needs turned and brushes need replaced

2 - Solenoid is arc welded engaged due to increased amperage through circuit to turn over the shorted segments on the armature

Thanks Scrmn - earlier in this thread I described how the solenoid terminals were at infinite resistance with no wires attached but closed (to a couple hundred ohms) when I attached only the wire going to the starter. Since the battery is out of the bike and the cable from the battery is not connected to the solenoid, I'm curious where the energy is coming from to close the circuit.
I've already resolved to replace the solenoid but I will make sure the starter is isolated.

Just thinking outloud here...the first place to make the connection is the solenoid and what happens is over time the copper washer and the 2 terminals it is connecting get pitted. This is exagerated with increased amperage to turn the starter over. Increased amperage creates heat and continues to pit the washer and terminal heads to the point it is possible the washer gets welded to the top of 1 or both terminal heads therefore acting like the starter button is engaged as the solenoid plunger is locked down in the start mode. The reason this happens is increased amperage to turn the starter over. You have 4 brushes that engage the starter to transfer the voltage and amperage from the solenoid to the starter. The starter is turning in a circle so you have alternating poles on the armature. as the armature turns the 4 brushes are alternating the push of the electrical current on the armature and creating radial torque. Over time the carbon brushes will wear down and reduce the force of the spring behind them as they get shorter. At the same time the brushes are wearing they are smearing and wearing copper on the armature which is actually segments alternating polarity with a thin layer of epoxy between them. Once the smear goes across the isolating seperating epoxy and touches the next segment you have created an alternating short to ground path. As the ground path becomes better the amperage required to turn the starter over becomes greater. As the amperage gowes up the solenoid begins to pit.

If I were you. I would check for the ground paths i have described and if I found supporting evidence i would remove the starter and inspect the armature. Early failure can be repaired by using emery cloth to polish the armature surface where the brushes engage. Once you have the surface clean, use a broken hack saw blade and drag out a littler of the segment seperating epoxy to guarantee the segments are isolated. The solenoid washer flipping trick for me is a 1 time deal and the next time it fails I cchange the solenoid. Sounds a little wordy but that is what happens when you ask an engineer....

Your 81 does not use the prestolite starter but the concept is the same, 4 brushes connecting to the seperated starter segments
http://demonscy.ipower.com/manuals/s...er_motor_1.jpg

Here speaks a man in the know and with the ability to explain. A rare combination.

Agreed Scared (and thanks again Scrmn)...I think we've beat this old horse (thread) to death. I know what I need to do. If I find anything revelational, I'll pass it along. Thanks everybody.

Let us know Garry - BTW, My first Harley was an 81 FXRS like your Sturgis but chain final drive instead of the belt drive you have. I had to flip that washer and service the starter a few times over the 10 years I rode her. Worst time was 25 miles from home, snowing, cold and wouldn't crank. I kicked that 4 spd over until my leg was shaking before she fired. Rode to the first light and almost dropped it over because my leg was jello. PITA then, nothing but fond memories now, wish I had her back....