Lock Tabs? Nutz!
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Stage IV
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
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From: Fountain Inn, SC
Lock Tabs? Nutz!
My 1999 (that's how I party!) Fatboy started leaking between the primary and the engine at about 60k on the clock. Now it has 105k and the leak grew really bad so I replaced the o-ring and seals. But in disassembly I found all of the 5/16 bolts in the primary case were loose... one had backed out and was being eaten by the primary chain. OEM had used lock tabs.
So I've surmised that the real issue wasn't the O-ring or seals, it was loose bolts. I'd already bought the gasket kit, so I used 'em. But the real fix was that I threw away the lock tabs that came with the kit, and used Heico-Lockers instead. These are wedge type lock washers.
Just an FYI, if you haven't heard of these, check 'em out. They really work.
bika
So I've surmised that the real issue wasn't the O-ring or seals, it was loose bolts. I'd already bought the gasket kit, so I used 'em. But the real fix was that I threw away the lock tabs that came with the kit, and used Heico-Lockers instead. These are wedge type lock washers.
Just an FYI, if you haven't heard of these, check 'em out. They really work.
bika
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,814
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From: SW Ohio
114K miles on my Dyna (That uses locking tabs). 94K miles on Road King (that uses sealed bolts, not tabs). Do you feel that miles caused the inner primary bolts loosen ? As I said, when locking tabs are properly installed, you'd hard pressed to prove to me that the bolts backed out (and I've never pulled apart an inner primary from the factory that had them installed improperly). More than likely, a "mechanic" who owned the bike previously or someone who worked on it did a half *ssed the job.
Harley can be accused of poor design now and then, but in my opinion, this isn't one of those times.
Harley can be accused of poor design now and then, but in my opinion, this isn't one of those times.
Last edited by Campy Roadie; Apr 17, 2017 at 07:06 AM.
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Stage IV
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
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From: Fountain Inn, SC
Don't believe it had been apart before me... only had 10k on it when I got it in '08. My day job is building gas turbines and windmill turbines. We found that there are only two ways to secure bolts/nuts over sustained periods of vibration... weld them or use wedge-lock washers. Lock tabs and lock wires all come loose.
I'm curious about what other work you've done on yours. I had an 02 RK and it went thru the valve tensioner within 35k. I got rid of it at 70k and by then it sounded like a bucket of bolts going down the road... sounded like spark knock but I couldn't get rid of it. Rode with others who had similar experiences with the twin cam. That's why I went with the Evo.
I'm curious about what other work you've done on yours. I had an 02 RK and it went thru the valve tensioner within 35k. I got rid of it at 70k and by then it sounded like a bucket of bolts going down the road... sounded like spark knock but I couldn't get rid of it. Rode with others who had similar experiences with the twin cam. That's why I went with the Evo.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,814
Likes: 5,120
From: SW Ohio
I've replaced a lot of wear items on that bike, including cam chain tensioners. I've had the inner primary off a few times but I never re-used locking tabs. I'm half deaf and wear earplugs, a noise ain't a noise to me until I can feel it in the pegs or the bars. I'm by no means an expert but you're the first person I ever heard of who had inner primary bolts back out that had locking tabs on them. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that your engine and trans aren't joined together like a Twin Cam and are only connected by the primary drive. The engine being hard mounted in the Softail frame probably doesn't help with vibration either.
Last edited by Campy Roadie; Apr 17, 2017 at 11:21 AM.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
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Likes: 12,713
From: South Carolina
You won`t find a lockwasher of any type on a modern jet engine, but you will see a lot of lock tabs, self locking nuts and locking thread inserts.
Safety wire has gone the way of the dinosaur.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program:
I think the bolt was not installed to the correct torque, or maybe the transmission and engine mount bolts were not loosened while the primary to transmission bolts were installed.
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Thread Starter
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Stage IV
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: Fountain Inn, SC
Land based industrial GTs. I don't know about aero. I've seen the safety wire still being used in the GTs within the last few years, and I think they still are, but only in certain apps. It all comes down to fabrication cost and warranty risk.
I can't agree with you on the lock tabs or that mine were torqued improperly. As I mentioned before, it only had 10k on the clock when I got it and no evidence of it having been apart. Lock tabs flex and sometimes break in service. I've seen them come loose on the GTs and wind mills, and now on the Fatboy -- I don't think it's justified to assume they were all improperly torqued. Most are torqued using preset air wrenches.
Torque is only friction of the threads and the bolt head. We use lubricants to reduce that friction to achieve a measure of clamping force, and at the same time we depend on that friction to keep the bolt/nut in place.
The beauty of the wedge-lockers is that even at low torque (I'd even bet on a 1/4 clamping force) they still work -- cam action converts the rotation into axial load.
I'm not saying that lock tabs won't work at all. They will for awhile. But they're not the best that can be used, and not the latest technology.
I can't agree with you on the lock tabs or that mine were torqued improperly. As I mentioned before, it only had 10k on the clock when I got it and no evidence of it having been apart. Lock tabs flex and sometimes break in service. I've seen them come loose on the GTs and wind mills, and now on the Fatboy -- I don't think it's justified to assume they were all improperly torqued. Most are torqued using preset air wrenches.
Torque is only friction of the threads and the bolt head. We use lubricants to reduce that friction to achieve a measure of clamping force, and at the same time we depend on that friction to keep the bolt/nut in place.
The beauty of the wedge-lockers is that even at low torque (I'd even bet on a 1/4 clamping force) they still work -- cam action converts the rotation into axial load.
I'm not saying that lock tabs won't work at all. They will for awhile. But they're not the best that can be used, and not the latest technology.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 21,146
Likes: 12,713
From: South Carolina
I think you are looking to fix a problem that does not exist.
There is no reason to make this simple, long proven method of fastening the inner primary into a science project...
If it were my bike, I would loosen the transmission mount bolts and the engine mounting bolts before torquing the inner primary bolts to the engine and to the transmission.
Good Luck.
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