Sorry but what's a "true" stage 1? ...in regard to A/C's anyway?? (which is kind of what I was hoping we may bottom out here)

Like I suggested earlier ...if you are already getting more than enough air with the design as is, then removing the filter all together isn't going to make it any better.

There are other considerations beside raw performance and in those regards, I think each to their own beliefs.

I'm not exactly sure being able to see through a filter is a good indication of it's ability to filter out the harmful particles we need filtered for a long life street engine. Not sure I could see through my K&N mind you.

 

They have the Stage 1 as intake, pipes, tuning module... On my 17 HSTC my stage 1 was V&H softail duals w/fishtail, most recent PC and I swapped out the intake.. The stock intake I was told from a perfomance standard was more than adequite - I just hated the pie tin cover and the football cover needed the older backing plate... I just went w/a screaming eagle...

 

Good discussion here.

My read on the subject is that the Ventilator style filter housing on the 114" models is a "proper" Stage 1 unit and will flow more than enough air. It's certainly very open and there is not restriction in the backplate. So that all looks good.

The only variable left to bottom out is the stock white synthetic filter element itself. Will it flow less/same/or more than a K&N oiled filter. And does it even matter?

I think the only way to truly tell is for someone to stick the filter housing on a flow bench and compare the performance of the two elements. You'll also need to know how much air a set of 114" M8 heads (are they any different from the 107 ones?) can move as well.

My initial conclusion though is that the air filter doesn't need to be changed to flow enough air for a "Stage 1" 114". But if you want to put a K&N element in, then go ahead - it's not hugely expensive.

I would love to see flow bench comparisons of both filter elements to know for sure.

 

Hmm....have look at the 114 stock to HD cam charts below. I don't know if they are realistic or not, but they certainly show a good improvement in pushing a broader torque curve out to the right for the Stage 2 Torque cam. Basically where I really do ride. I am going to do that for sure as unfortunately, my dealer says HD will void the powertrain warranty if I do a non-HD cam and a home install.

The curves on the S2 TQ cam look like a really nice improvement on the stock cam, although as it's HD marketing bumph, who knows? Most of the S2 TQ cam reviews I have read recently have been pretty damn positive - and the 114"s aren't slouches anyway. I do feel the stock cam loses TQ fairly early though.

ALTHOUGH - looking at those charts again, I think HD has the TQ and HP cam charts mixed up on the first graph. It makes no sense that the TQ cam makes more HP and TQ than the HP cam. Maybe there's a newer version...

 

My guess is there will be no measurable difference. If I had a stock 107 I would run a K&N because it is a lot larger than the stock filter. Otherwise I try to avoid them. In fact, I am very happy the stock 114 has a synthetic filter. It will actually do a decent job of filtering. Which the K&N does not do unless you get the oil saturation perfect. Which isn't likely. Just my 2 cents.

 

Indeed, classically a Harley "Stage 1" was better breathing input and output and a tune to re-map the VE tables and such accordingly.

But... if the input breathing is pretty good already... there's nothing really to improve --- until you start looking at wider throttle bodies on bigger builds that is

To be honest, all this "Stage x" is buzz words, flannel, and marketing anyways. When I sold my bike I described it as a "Stage 2" (Cams) plus Head work ...on account of "Stage 3" apparently being increasing CI ...turns out I did the 4 bit before the 3, lol

I just don't think this stuff is understood well enough.



Martin10
I agree on the K&N, and also this idea of them filtering better the dirtier they get?? Funnily enough, I thought I was getting crank breather oil in the intake ...it turned out it was an over-oiled K&N (blush)

Adm
I was looking at Steve and FM's dyno testing sheets. They do obviously show improvements but I find myself weighing up the cost per benefit ...maybe you guys tearing around on the Fat Bobs would get more benefit/use than me on a Fat Boy, dunno.
I think there is a wee typo in those HD charts

 

I have the K&N RK-3942 high air flow football filter on my 2013 Lo. It's not so much the filter itself as the stock breather bolts and tubes that restricted air flow on stock setup get tossed in the trash so you have filtered full port intake.

K&N has Dyno jet numbers of their air filters on some setups you can look at. Doesn't look like they have the 2018 softail Dyno numbers up yet though.

 

I'm not sure that the stock breathers would restrict the flow much. However, they definitely puke crankcaseoil mist back into the intake.

On my Dyna, I had a DK Customs intake and externally venting crankcase breathers. Once i get my S&S slip ons (ordered today) and sort out the PV for the new bike, I'll also vent the breathers externally. Just doesn't make any sense (apart from emissions control) to have crankcase gas going back into the intake. It can only dilute the charge.

But it's also a balancing act - to have the right amount of oil in the motor so it doesn't puke oil mist back into the intake in the first place unless you externally vent it - and then you need the same finesse to make sure you don't get oil puking on your leg or your bike....

 

Enough restriction for about 9 hp without them.

 

I take it that was a joke?

Each to their own about venting breathers to the atmosphere, but when I tried it, I routed some short hoses down onto the top of the engine between the lifter blocks just to see what would happen. 2000 miles I got nowt what so ever! ...but I keep my oil level at 2/3rds And it absolutely certainly didn't give me a 10% boost in horsepower ...I think I would have noticed that, lol.
That was when I noticed there was still oil inside the intake ...from an over-oiled K&N (my fault)

If you meant the filter element holding back 10% that might be the K&N sales blurb you are looking at, not sure that applies to the new engines with better A/C (if it ever did)

Good old marketing ...I'll take the testing Steve and such have been doing ...although there are one or two rather ambitious graphs out there which also don't help us get to the bottom of all of this.

to between the lifters