No Device: Wide Band or Narrow Band ?
#1
04-25-2016, 09:34 AM
Wide Band or Narrow Band ?
Hey izzy... I tune with the stock narrow band all the time and have fantastic results. Why do we need to swap out to wideband and use a separate device rather than our flash tuners? Curious as to why you would say that.
Top Answer
04-26-2016, 12:48 PM
I have no problem with either sensor. They both have their place. They both have limitations and both have their benefits.
Narrow band: Can read from 14.2/3 to leaner than stoich. This is a narrower range but it can read this range very accurate. A couple of things that help with the accuracy is that they are much more responsive, and can be read much faster. They can read every spark event. This means that if you are cruising in your cruise range of 3000. You are getting 25 spark events a second and the NB sensor is being polled by the ECM 25 times a second. The ECM can also control when during the exhaust event it is polled.
What we call wide bands: Can read from 10:1 to leaner than stoich. This is a broader range but in order to read this range it gives up accuracy across the entire range it can read in. We also need to add a controller that adds to the latency of the reading. All the sensors and controller out there can only read at 4 times a second. Using the above rpm range. We see we loose about 21 of the 25 events every second. Manufacture of these controllers state that AFR can be 5% off. Which in reality is fine because we are using these sensors to map the richer portion of the calibration, and an error here isn't as critical. Keep in mind that these read when they can and have no input to where the engine is in it's stroke events at the time of reading.
I look at the NB's as a outside micrometer. I can only measure with in an inch but can measure to the 4th place. WB's are like a 6 inch scale. They can measure in a bigger range of 6 inch's but only to the 2rd place. What are you measuring? Bolt length or a piston skirt? Boils down to right tool for the job.
I think it is important to map the VE with NB's in the area that is going to run in closed loop by the NB's. Because basically what we are doing by this is. Centering the VE's in the LT/STFT.
Now we have had a couple of manufactures pushing to replace NB's with WB's and configure the ECM to take the 0-5 volt signal. This is nothing new and has been in the ECM for years or since before it came out. It was proven then that the WB's were not callable of holding the tune in the tolerance that they were looking for. The auto world figured this out a long time ago. (I do understand that auto's do have WB's installed, but they don't only have WB's and look at what those sensors are there to do) There has also been plenty of manufactures that have tried mimicking NB output with WB's. This hasn't been successful because the lack of accuracy/ slow to respond WB sensor.
Where to run open vs closed has many factors that need to be considered. From parts on the bike, sensor location, accuracies of the verified readings..... BUT I do not consider heat in the cruise range. I consider fuel mileage. I don't believe that there is enough actual fuel being delivered between 14.3 to 14 to absorb any more heat in the fuel to make any measurable difference in heat. That might be another topic though.
Narrow band: Can read from 14.2/3 to leaner than stoich. This is a narrower range but it can read this range very accurate. A couple of things that help with the accuracy is that they are much more responsive, and can be read much faster. They can read every spark event. This means that if you are cruising in your cruise range of 3000. You are getting 25 spark events a second and the NB sensor is being polled by the ECM 25 times a second. The ECM can also control when during the exhaust event it is polled.
What we call wide bands: Can read from 10:1 to leaner than stoich. This is a broader range but in order to read this range it gives up accuracy across the entire range it can read in. We also need to add a controller that adds to the latency of the reading. All the sensors and controller out there can only read at 4 times a second. Using the above rpm range. We see we loose about 21 of the 25 events every second. Manufacture of these controllers state that AFR can be 5% off. Which in reality is fine because we are using these sensors to map the richer portion of the calibration, and an error here isn't as critical. Keep in mind that these read when they can and have no input to where the engine is in it's stroke events at the time of reading.
I look at the NB's as a outside micrometer. I can only measure with in an inch but can measure to the 4th place. WB's are like a 6 inch scale. They can measure in a bigger range of 6 inch's but only to the 2rd place. What are you measuring? Bolt length or a piston skirt? Boils down to right tool for the job.
I think it is important to map the VE with NB's in the area that is going to run in closed loop by the NB's. Because basically what we are doing by this is. Centering the VE's in the LT/STFT.
Now we have had a couple of manufactures pushing to replace NB's with WB's and configure the ECM to take the 0-5 volt signal. This is nothing new and has been in the ECM for years or since before it came out. It was proven then that the WB's were not callable of holding the tune in the tolerance that they were looking for. The auto world figured this out a long time ago. (I do understand that auto's do have WB's installed, but they don't only have WB's and look at what those sensors are there to do) There has also been plenty of manufactures that have tried mimicking NB output with WB's. This hasn't been successful because the lack of accuracy/ slow to respond WB sensor.
Where to run open vs closed has many factors that need to be considered. From parts on the bike, sensor location, accuracies of the verified readings..... BUT I do not consider heat in the cruise range. I consider fuel mileage. I don't believe that there is enough actual fuel being delivered between 14.3 to 14 to absorb any more heat in the fuel to make any measurable difference in heat. That might be another topic though.
#2
04-25-2016, 08:38 PM
When you set an AFR value of say 13.2.. the narrowband can't read it, and it is now known as open loop. When an AFR cell is set for 14.2, the narrowband sensor can now read it, and it's now what's referred to as "closed loop".
On my bike I run power commander's wide band kit. Because the o2 sensors are wide band (can detect the full AFR range) my entire map is in closed loop.
The reason I say narrow band sensors aren't any good for auto tuning, is because you are setting the fuel AFR. The only thing narrowband o2 sensors can do is make sure it stays between that small AFR range, which I feel is just too lean. Just MHO.
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Tksdeuce (05-18-2023)
#3
04-25-2016, 08:57 PM
Auto tuning with the NB sensors still work fine for getting your VEs set. What they don't do is verify and correct anything out of the NB range.
Once your VEs are set the ECM should be able to accurately calculate fuel delivery for any given cell.
Also Izzy you are recommending changing the afr out of the NB sensors range. Without the VEs being accurately set through running some auto tune sessions it would all guess work for the ECM when it comes to fuel delivery.
Unless of course you have high confidence that the factory set VEs are accurate
Once your VEs are set the ECM should be able to accurately calculate fuel delivery for any given cell.
Also Izzy you are recommending changing the afr out of the NB sensors range. Without the VEs being accurately set through running some auto tune sessions it would all guess work for the ECM when it comes to fuel delivery.
Using the stock tune (which I'm assuming is this pic here):
Change cells displayed 13.8 to to 13.2.
Change the cells that display 14.6 to 13.8 (this is primarily your cruise range).
Change the cells that display 14.5 to 13.5.
Change the cells that display 14.4 to 13.2
Change the cells that display 14.0 to 13.3
Change 14.1 to 13.2
Change cells displayed 13.8 to to 13.2.
Change the cells that display 14.6 to 13.8 (this is primarily your cruise range).
Change the cells that display 14.5 to 13.5.
Change the cells that display 14.4 to 13.2
Change the cells that display 14.0 to 13.3
Change 14.1 to 13.2
Last edited by JustDave13; 04-25-2016 at 09:05 PM.
#4
04-26-2016, 05:43 AM
Road Warrior
TTS, PV, and FP3 all have autotune programs that quite happily use the stock narrowband sensors to tune the VE tables, which is step 1. Step X is setting your AFR table to what ever you want. Two different things.
Narrowband autotune programs put the whole AFR table (temporarily) to 14.2 or so they can accurately measure all of the cells in the VE tables. Once finished autotune puts the stock Open/Closed AFR table back in ...and your bike is possibly as tuned as it were when it came out the factory.
Izzy brought up using a closed loop tune, that requires wideband sensors that we do not have so is a choice/cost option.
The stock cam that is in the HO engines will already be programmed into the stock map ...and presumably any of the canned maps from DJ/FM/etc, if they built theirs from the stock offering.
In what way / what were you maybe expecting?
Same as others I would start with the stock map, and your dyno (if you go for that) might get a bit more looking at timing and such later. You may not end up any better or as good as the DJ map mind you but its just a little bit of work and en excuse to go for a ride or two to try 
...What was wrong with your results?
Narrowband autotune programs put the whole AFR table (temporarily) to 14.2 or so they can accurately measure all of the cells in the VE tables. Once finished autotune puts the stock Open/Closed AFR table back in ...and your bike is possibly as tuned as it were when it came out the factory.
Izzy brought up using a closed loop tune, that requires wideband sensors that we do not have so is a choice/cost option.
The stock cam that is in the HO engines will already be programmed into the stock map ...and presumably any of the canned maps from DJ/FM/etc, if they built theirs from the stock offering.
...What was wrong with your results?
#5
04-26-2016, 05:50 AM
Road Warrior
#6
04-26-2016, 06:15 AM
Former Sponsor
I'm sorry I overlooked your post. Narrowband sensors are only good for a small range of AFR, usually between 14.1 and 15.1 (est) so they are really only good for "auto tuning" the cruise range. That's why you'll see a lot of narrow band auto tunes with 14.1 in the cruise range. Narrowband sensors are only capable of working/reading in when an AFR is set within the range they are capable of reading..
When you set an AFR value of say 13.2.. the narrowband can't read it, and it is now known as open loop. When an AFR cell is set for 14.2, the narrowband sensor can now read it, and it's now what's referred to as "closed loop".
On my bike I run power commander's wide band kit. Because the o2 sensors are wide band (can detect the full AFR range) my entire map is in closed loop.
The reason I say narrow band sensors aren't any good for auto tuning, is because you are setting the fuel AFR. The only thing narrowband o2 sensors can do is make sure it stays between that small AFR range, which I feel is just too lean. Just MHO.
When you set an AFR value of say 13.2.. the narrowband can't read it, and it is now known as open loop. When an AFR cell is set for 14.2, the narrowband sensor can now read it, and it's now what's referred to as "closed loop".
On my bike I run power commander's wide band kit. Because the o2 sensors are wide band (can detect the full AFR range) my entire map is in closed loop.
The reason I say narrow band sensors aren't any good for auto tuning, is because you are setting the fuel AFR. The only thing narrowband o2 sensors can do is make sure it stays between that small AFR range, which I feel is just too lean. Just MHO.
#7
04-26-2016, 10:22 AM
Auto tuning with the NB sensors still work fine for getting your VEs set. What they don't do is verify and correct anything out of the NB range.
Once your VEs are set the ECM should be able to accurately calculate fuel delivery for any given cell.
Also Izzy you are recommending changing the afr out of the NB sensors range. Without the VEs being accurately set through running some auto tune sessions it would all guess work for the ECM when it comes to fuel delivery.
Unless of course you have high confidence that the factory set VEs are accurate
Once your VEs are set the ECM should be able to accurately calculate fuel delivery for any given cell.
Also Izzy you are recommending changing the afr out of the NB sensors range. Without the VEs being accurately set through running some auto tune sessions it would all guess work for the ECM when it comes to fuel delivery.
Unless of course you have high confidence that the factory set VEs are accurate
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#8
04-26-2016, 10:25 AM
#9
04-26-2016, 11:17 AM
#10
04-26-2016, 11:59 AM
Road Warrior
Converting your stock narrow band EFI to be Wide band, and Tuning with Wide band vs Narrow band,
To answer Izzy's last question; the autotune process of the Power Vision changes the whole of the AFR table to be 14.4 (0.982 lambda) in all cells, the FP3 set it all to 14.3. This puts all cells within the range that the narrowband sensors can measure and re calculate what the VE should be for that cell. This is good because the point of tuning the VE tables is about working out how efficient the airflow is at any given RPM vs TPS (or MAP for MAP based VE tables). The autotune process changes some other tables and disables some things as well, but the point here is getting your VE tables worked out for any changes to the airflow your new bits may have made.
When you finish autotuning the the VE tables you save the newly learned map and exit the autotune process. The new map has the AFR tables put back the way they were and resets and switches the other bits back on again, to the way they all were in the base map you used for the autotune.
Wide band tuning wouldn't necessarily have to change the AFR table because the wide band sensors could read and recalculate the VEs for the whole range of AFR. However, as an example not knowing much about this personally, the Pro tuning mode on the Power Vision sets the whole AFR table to 13.1 (0.890 lambda) ...Dynojet say this is how a technician would do it with a bike on the Dyno.
Running a full-time wide band EFI system (as Izzy does) is a whole different discussion again and would bring in products like Izzy has for the commander, or Target Tune, is Thundermax a wide band EFI ?
Last edited by Gordon61; 04-27-2016 at 04:12 AM. Reason: Corrected AFR value, thanks IKnowNot