I meant that in terms of the extreme variations - in that they would become less over time with adaptive learning enabled.

 

Last comment on TT. About a year ago. Jamie was in here talking about TT and how he did this or that behind the scenes to make it all work. Dan H from DJ who in charge of that department came on and cleared the air about what TT is and that all they did was turn it on in the ECM because it was already there. Proved Jamie to be full of BS.

In that same thread, because of Dan, it came out who originally wrote into the ECM the ability to use wide band o2 sensors and how it was for development of calibration and never made to be used as it is trying to be used by TT.

The guy that developed it was Steve Cole. So, I’m going to take his word on it over a guy that has already lied to this whole forum.

 

I mention free flowing exhaust because of the problems I have seen with trying to run CL with them. Take some 2 inch drag pipes that are 2 feet long. You are going to have sampling problems because of reversion. What I have seen is the sensors are indicating lean. ECM adds fuel. But what was really going on was fresh air was being sucked into pipe. I have also seen this w/ baggers that have the stick y pipe and free flowing mufflers installed. So, if you asked me about your 07 Bagger that you wanted to only change to VH Hi Out puts, and asked if the stock ECM would trim it in. I’d say no.

 

Interesting... Seems that 2 feet long drag pipes would be on the extreme end of the spectrum. You see similar problems with more run of the mill exhaust from the standard fare aftermarket? When it comes to tuning, how do you deal with problematic exhaust such as you described?

 

I restrict the exhaust. On the Y pipe example. Weld a freeze plug with a 1/2 inch hole into the Y pipe as it enters the left muffler. Zippers also sells something real close to this.


http://www.zippersperformance.com/al...p-stopper.html


On other exhaust like 2-1's I block with different methods of plugs and such for the problem areas. Map the area with WB's and then run the area in open loop so the ECM doesn't change it later. My equipment also allows me to pull a vacuum through my o2 blocks that helps. These blocks go 5-6 inch's out of the port and not down by the collector.


I am about ready to put a 12 dyna on the dyno. It was tuned by me with a Rush 2-1. Customer wrecked it and that pipe is no longer available. He decided on a Bassani 2-1. I will use my final from Rush for the starting cal. I will post results of VE mapping compared to what it was. Don't know what it will show but I am willing to bet there will be some cells that have changed quit a bit and some that haven't. I also predict some will add fuel as some take away.

 

Cut and paste to compare files.

 

Still curious about a couple of things...

Do you see issues (sampling problems due to reversion etc.) running closed loop with a lot of the common aftermarket exhaust?

Another question lingers... what about adaptive learning and Target Tune?

Anyway... I do appreciate you and Steve taking the time to answer my questions.

 

I see sample problems with a lot of aftermarket exhaust. These problems usually come in the lower KPA areas for a lot of different reason. Sometimes it is because of the basic pipe design. Just because it is marketed as performance. Doesn’t mean it is. Sometimes it is bung location. Having a sensor on the inside of a radius doesn’t always get the sensor I. The stream. Sometimes it is how the bung is designed itself. Some are long and only the very tip of the sensor is in the stream. Sometimes the manufacture only uses 18mm bungs and wants you use an adapter to use the stock 12mm’s. This can move sensor out of exhaust stream and shroud it with adapter. Some want to put the 12mm’s down in stock location but with the removal of the cat. Now the sensors are real close to the collector on many 2-1 or 2-1-2’s and cross talk can happen. All boils down to garbage in, garbage out and recognizing what is garbage and what isn’t.

I have had customers that have auto programmed their VE’s for tanks of fuel. Idle and low KPA area all in closed loop. Complaint is bad throttle response down low. I have mapped their VE’s differently. Set the area in open loop and the end result is they get throttle response and are actually running leaning than they were.

Best of my understanding. TT doesn’t use adaptive fueling strategy. There isn’t a need for it in how it is suppose to be used. For development. Just as auto tune basic doesn’t need it. It is used to map VE’s not to be used for normal operating conditions.

 

Jason is close but I need this to get straight so people understand that I did not write the code for it, I just worked with the people who did, for a number of years I was part of a team of people who calibrated and helped develop various functions and how they work and don't work.. I used it, worked with it, long before any of the aftermarket people were even selling tuning devices and tried to make it into something it is not. I do not want to take credit for something that I did not do.

It was and still is designed to help develop a calibration NOT a finial tune. When you have no idea where your at the NB sensors do not have enough range to let you know, at times, and the Broad Band sensor that most are using will. The response time of these sensors are slow, when you compare them to today's NB sensors. They do not do a good job in rapidly changing conditions (BB). They will not straighten out a bad calibration, and there is no magic to it. The entire function was and is designed for development purposes and used as designed it works fine. Try and use it for the BS some internet sales guys are pushing and you may well end up with a bike that under performs or flat out runs terrible. Get a good calibration in the bike and it can make small trim adjustments fine but the stock bike already does that, so what are you really gaining?

 

Thanks Steve and Jason for another free lesson in ECM control, if I could articulate the knowledge I have gained from both your posts over the last 10 or so years I could straighten out a great many misconceptions that I have heard aired but alas I cannot so I usually just let it go and walk away. Not my money.