Touring Models Road King, Road King Custom, Road King Classic, Road Glide, Street Glide, Electra Glide, Electra Glide Classic, and Electra Glide Ultra Classic bikes.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

ABS Brake Recall

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
  #131  
Old 03-17-2018, 12:05 PM
TheGrandPoohBah's Avatar
TheGrandPoohBah
TheGrandPoohBah is offline
Extreme HDF Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mountain Top, Alabama
Posts: 14,731
Received 2,524 Likes on 1,421 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by jimglassford
Alarmdoug

I really hope you do not take this with any inflection other than am very interested in learning more about your failure.

What year was your V-Star
Did it have ABS
What exactly failed in the brakes

The reason I ask is that if the ABS failed, as in froze up, then any other motorcycle can have the same concern as the Harley owners. A system did not fail in a safe manner. I would like to see the inside of the V-Star design.

If something failed other than the ABS module due to moisture in the brake fluid, should all of us start inspection other parts of the brake system on any bike. The diagnosis would help everyone.

I kind of learned a different way about moisture in brake fluid. I mountain bike and the hydraulic disk brakes use DOT 4. The second year I owned the bike, first ride of the season, the front brake system started dragging on a long ride and eventually would not release. I did not realize that you have to bleed the brakes and replace the fluid every spring. These brake systems are very small, having only a few CCs of fluid and no reservoir, just a plunger pushing the fluid. Moisture expanded the fluid over the winter and the heat generated while braking expanded the fluid, clamping down on the rotor.
Not to hijack, but I mountain bike too. My systems use Shimano Mineral Oil, no water issues, and the disc brake pads have spring shims that force the pads open when brake pressure is released. These sealed systems can go years without replacing fluid, in fact the recommended amount of fluid reminds you to replace pads when lever travel becomes excessive due to pad wear. Sounds like something mechanical is sticking on you, probably due to dust and grit.
Now back to our regular scheduled griping about HD's pizz poor choice of ABS brake component design and materials '08 - '12 and the blame game on brake fluid flushes...
 

Last edited by TheGrandPoohBah; 03-17-2018 at 12:07 PM.
  #132  
Old 03-17-2018, 12:41 PM
jimglassford's Avatar
jimglassford
jimglassford is offline
Tourer
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Manchester, MI
Posts: 447
Likes: 0
Received 195 Likes on 115 Posts
Default Mineral Oil

Shimano uses mineral oil, all others use Dot 4 or 5.1, both Glycol based. The Elixar brake maintenance guidelines calls for brake fluid flush every year due to moisture.
 

Last edited by jimglassford; 03-17-2018 at 01:15 PM.
  #133  
Old 03-17-2018, 07:21 PM
jddaniel's Avatar
jddaniel
jddaniel is offline
Advanced
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 98
Received 26 Likes on 18 Posts
Default

I just had my 2011 Ultra Limited brakes flushed at the dealers with no issues. The service guy said they have been doing a lot of Recall Brake fluid flushes and so far this year they haven't seen any ABS HUC module failures.
 
  #134  
Old 03-19-2018, 05:56 AM
alarmdoug's Avatar
alarmdoug
alarmdoug is offline
Road Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 1,271
Received 244 Likes on 168 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ORradtech
I've read your posts and lots of others in the same vein. And I agree, negligence can be fatal. If everyone throughly read all maintainee instructions including the fine print there would be a tremendous savings in pain, death, time and money.

But that still doesn't answer the core question here.

Why don't Harley Davidson ABS brakes failsafe to standard brakes as the industry standard indicates and HD advertised they would?
Im not sure what the industry standard is, I owned a 2007 Yamaha Vstar 1300 tourer and the rear brakes failed because I didnt change the brake fluid.
(however yahama puts the brake fluid change requirement in foot notes after the maintance schedule, I was pissed, BUT lets be fair here, there was no fine print with Harley, HD put in right in the maintenance schedule. Yamaha HAD THE FINE PRINT.

I too expected a "failsafe" because like on an automobile, if the master cylinder goes, you push to the floor and you always have emergency braking power. I couldnt believe my bike wasnt doing the same but in reality I did have brakes, I had no rear but I did have the front.

If you think about it though, the "failsafe" might be, I still have the front brakes. More or less if one fails, I still have the other, like in Harleys case.

You guys think I am defending Harley, Im not, Im just saying I owned another NON ABS bike and the rear brakes failed completely because I didnt change the brake fluid, I did not blame Yamaha, BUT I was PISSED that Yamaha left the required brake fluid change out of the maintenance schedule and put it in the foot notes after the schedule.

I agree with everyone about what Harley advertised or wrote about the failsafe. Stuff happens though, every manufacturer right up to the space shuttle sadly can not anticipate or or figure out every possible flaw in an engineering design.
But if the brake fluid was change ... yes, yes, I know I said that! )
 

Last edited by alarmdoug; 03-19-2018 at 06:00 AM.
  #135  
Old 03-19-2018, 06:02 AM
alarmdoug's Avatar
alarmdoug
alarmdoug is offline
Road Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 1,271
Received 244 Likes on 168 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by rv7garage
Doug won’t answer that question.
read above...
 
  #136  
Old 03-19-2018, 06:39 AM
hellonewman's Avatar
hellonewman
hellonewman is offline
Club Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,275
Received 5,739 Likes on 2,472 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by alarmdoug

I too expected a "failsafe" because like on an automobile, if the master cylinder goes, you push to the floor and you always have emergency braking power. I couldnt believe my bike wasnt doing the same but in reality I did have brakes, I had no rear but I did have the front.

If you think about it though, the "failsafe" might be, I still have the front brakes. More or less if one fails, I still have the other, like in Harleys case.

)
Thats exactly what you had on your car. Only half of your master had a problem so you were down to one of the two braking systems. Go back to 1966 on a car where you had a single braking system, talk about screwed if you popped a flex hose because we all know the emergency brake was seized years prior.
 
The following users liked this post:
alarmdoug (03-20-2018)
  #137  
Old 03-19-2018, 06:42 AM
hellonewman's Avatar
hellonewman
hellonewman is offline
Club Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,275
Received 5,739 Likes on 2,472 Posts
  #138  
Old 03-19-2018, 07:56 AM
ratpick's Avatar
ratpick
ratpick is offline
Road Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 573
Received 155 Likes on 108 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by alarmdoug
Im not sure what the industry standard is, I owned a 2007 Yamaha Vstar 1300 tourer and the rear brakes failed because I didnt change the brake fluid.
(however yahama puts the brake fluid change requirement in foot notes after the maintance schedule, I was pissed, BUT lets be fair here, there was no fine print with Harley, HD put in right in the maintenance schedule. Yamaha HAD THE FINE PRINT.

I too expected a "failsafe" because like on an automobile, if the master cylinder goes, you push to the floor and you always have emergency braking power. I couldnt believe my bike wasnt doing the same but in reality I did have brakes, I had no rear but I did have the front.

If you think about it though, the "failsafe" might be, I still have the front brakes. More or less if one fails, I still have the other, like in Harleys case.

[...]
This so called "failsafe" to which you refer in automobiles is (with a very few exceptions) simply a good engineering design in which the front and rear brake circuits are separate, so if one is compromised the other can still work independently--hence the two reservoirs on master cylinder. The same can essentially be said for motorcycles, but I don't feel the situation is at all analogous with HD ABS failure because rather than implementing a redundant configuration to improve safety, HD has introduced a system that can actually cause the failure of either or both circuits. I think we would all agree that brake failure, front or rear, on a motorcycle is a far more serious event than with an automobile, and one that's far more likely to result in a very bad outcome especially if it's the front that fails. Imagine the uproar if a major auto manufacturer put something like this on the road, and the consequences are far worse for motorcyclists.

Regarding footnotes and fine print, I referred to these from HD service manual maintenance schedule previously and have attached a couple snapshots illustrating a situation identical to that you've described w/Yamaha. The footnote doesn't even specify 24 months, and "two years" can and will be interpreted as anything less than 3 years by most anyone doing maintenance--including dealerships--assuming they took notice of footnotes on the next page at all. Nor does it imply any sense of urgency or the possibility of a fatally compromised brake system. Either they didn't anticipate the system could fail in this fashion and the footnote is just a standard legal CYA that's habitually ignored in everything from cycles to software, or they did know and epically failed to communicate the gravity and dire consequences of failure to flush system within an interval that's only loosely specified. Look at the other footnotes. Does anyone actually make sure to disassemble, inspect, and lube steering head bearings or change fork oil at 50K, and if not would it be acceptable if the front ends suddenly came apart without warning? Poor design, poor engineering, and poor product support with little regard for their customers.

 
  #139  
Old 03-19-2018, 12:10 PM
hellonewman's Avatar
hellonewman
hellonewman is offline
Club Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,275
Received 5,739 Likes on 2,472 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ratpick
Does anyone actually make sure to disassemble, inspect, and lube steering head bearings or change fork oil at 50K, and if not would it be acceptable if the front ends suddenly came apart without warning?
I was going to say neck bearings are important and could lead to loss of control with a wobble resulting in death so they should be inspected but then I recalled these bikes are prone to death wobbles anyway! So we have a wobble to worry about, crappy suspension and hit and miss brakes (no pun intended). Still safer than a foot clutch / hand shift, rigid, drum brake (what brakes?) bike and people pay big money for those clunky old things.
 
  #140  
Old 03-20-2018, 05:31 AM
alarmdoug's Avatar
alarmdoug
alarmdoug is offline
Road Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 1,271
Received 244 Likes on 168 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ratpick
...

Regarding footnotes and fine print, I referred to these from HD service manual maintenance schedule previously and have attached a couple snapshots illustrating a situation identical to that you've described w/Yamaha. The footnote doesn't even specify 24 months, and "two years" can and will be interpreted as anything less than 3 years by most anyone doing maintenance--including dealerships--assuming they took notice of footnotes on the next page at all. Nor does it imply any sense of urgency ..

Wow, your 2011 Touring manual is exactly like Yamaha's regarding 2 year fluid changes. Its buried in the "notes" I would be pissed too.
On the 2014 Touring manual it is right in the maintenance schedule.

Thanks for the photo, I may not have believed you. )
Once again, that was then, this is now, Im sure HD learned a lesson with ABS and how not to repeat the issue. (like any manufacturer) but change fluid on time for sure.. *L*
 

Last edited by alarmdoug; 03-20-2018 at 05:35 AM.


Quick Reply: ABS Brake Recall



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:15 PM.