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Re-tune bike with Vance & Hines Power Duals?

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  #11  
Old 03-21-2011, 08:17 PM
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The truth is I spent ~$25k on the Ultra Limited 4 weeks ago, and ~$32k last week on an '11 Ultra Classic Tri-Glide for the wife. Add the insurance, clothing and the Skull treatment everywhere on mine, including the Tour-Pak quick disconnect I came off about $60k. I want to slow down the cash-out flow for a few weeks but also want to improve the sound. Everyone's an opinion is really, really appreciated. I found the post below and I believe it to be SPOT ON! I'm changing the slip-ons until I can add the HD Super Tuner.

"If the modifications are done by an HD DEALER.....no it will NOT void your warranty....people everyday buy brand new bikes and have big bores, strokers, cams, heads pipes and air cleaners installed....all covered under warranty. In fact, Screamin Eagle parts are completely covered by the factory 2 year warranty of the bikes itself if installed at the time of purchasing the bike....installed later, only covered for 30-90 days, depending on the part and dealer..........I wish people would do the research to learn this and the salesperson would tell the customer this when buying the bike.....its a win-win situation for everyone, the customer gets what he wants from the start and the added expense can be added to the loan so no out-of-pocket money is needed and no extra trips to the service dept later to add the parts and the dealer makes more money.

Contrary to what z900a4 said below.....HD's...DO NOT...come fitted with SE mufflers from the factory!!!...they must be added on.

A MINOR exhaust change will not REQUIRE the ECM to be remapped. Minor, meaning slip-on baffled mufflers. BUT...if you change the exhaust out to a system like Vance & Hines, Rinehart, etc, exhausts that are completely open using only a simple perforated or louvered baffle, you do need to remap the ECM. ALSO....why JUST change the exhaust???.....letting more air in by replacing the stock air cleaner with a hi-flo air cleaner...AND...a free flowing exhaust will give you at least 10 more hp and 10 or more ft/lbs of torque.....BUT, once again....if you change the air cleaner, YOU MUST REMAP THE ECM!!!!....more air means a leaner condition which must be compensated for by adding more fuel.....

Below are clips from answers to similar questions.........

The stock ECM is NOT relearn capable, it will only self compensate under the extremely NARROW parameters by which it was programmed...it does this by the use of O2 sensors....NEVER EVER eliminate the O2 sensors!!!!!

V&H Fuel Pack, Ness Fuel Controller....are junk!!!..........Read below........it is answer to another similar question regarding injection tuning, also included is info on oil to help run COOLER...cooler + better performance.......Due to the EXTREMELY LIMITED mounting space for add-on "piggy-back" fuel controllers on a Softail.....I HIGHLY AND STRONGLY recommend the Sreamin Eagle Super Tuner.....it is only software that reprograms the ECM with nothing needing to be mounted to the bike. The Super Tuner will allow for infinite adjustments to the air/fuel ratio, ignition timing, rev-limiter, acellerator pump feature, engine decel enleanment to eliminate exhaust popping, etc.

And to make it run BETTER & COOLER.......here is some info on proper tuning........an answer to a previous question......

DO YOU HAVE A HI-FLO AIR CLEANER AND PIPES ON THE BIKE???.....IF SO, DID YOU HAVE THE ECM REMAPPED BY HD OR HAVE A SUPER TUNER OR POWER COMMANDER ON IT????...........THIS IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!
HD'S ARE SET UP TO RUN VERY VERY LEAN DUE TO EPA REGULATIONS!!!!!!! RUNNING LEAN CAUSES THE ENGINE TO RUN HOT!!!!!!........THERE ARE OIL JETS THAT SQUIRT OIL ON THE BOTTOM SIDE OF THE PISTON TO COOL THE PISTON.....THIS HEATS UP THE OIL..........RICHEN IT UP, THE PISTON WILL RUN COOLER....THE OIL WILL RUN COOLER.
Even if the bike is COMPLETELY STOCK.......have HD do a Stage 1 download to the ECM......if you have a Power Commander or Super Tuner on the bike..........get it dyno TUNED.....it will increase your performance and make the engine run OPTIMALLY..................her... is some info about "downloads compared to the Super Tuner.......
You want the Screamin Eagle SUPER TUNER!!!!.......and have it Dyno TUNED.....don't sttle for just having the base map loaded. The difference between being tuned and a base map is like night and day. The base maps are just that...a base to which to work form. Every engine is as individaul as we are as humans, they each require a little finesse and tuning to make them perform optimally. The Super Tuner will also allow for easier tuning for any future upgrade you may make.
A Stage 1 download is nothing more than a GENERIC map from HD that is "ok" for all bikes....this is CRAP!!!......the Stage 1 download was specifically made for a HD with Screamin Eagle Mufflers and Air Cleaner......not all mufflers (or complete exhaust systems) flow exactly the same and not all Air Cleaners flow exactly the same...meaning, if you change ANYTHING on the exhaust and intake that the Stage 1 was not designed for, it wil not work as well.....like I said every engine is DIFFERENT.
As far as power output goes....it will vary as to what components are used and how well it is tuned....but on an average from completely STOCK to an upgrade of exhaust/air cleaner, super tuner, about 12-15 horsepower........At how many miles did you start running synthetic? You should never run synthetic until at least 2500.
Which Power Commander was installed....the O2 eliminator ( DO NOT USE THIS!!!...THE O2 SENSORS ARE THERE FOR A REASON....O2 eliminators should ONLY be used for RACING applications!!!!) or the new PC 5 w/ wide band O2 sensors? (The WIDE BAND IS THE BEST fuel controller on the market for Big Twins....BUT requires a fair amount of room to install it along with extra room needed for the add-on ign control module), did you have the separate ADJUSTABLE IGNTION MODULE AND/OR AUTO TUNE MODULE (09-newer) installed also....this will HELP ALOT!!!!....the HD Super Tuner is good, but it runs narrow band O2 sensors (i like these for Sportsters because there is no module to install and conceal).....BUT it does have ignition adjustments the PC doesn't have by itself (have to add it extra with the PC5).
Either way, it sounds like you need to have the bike properly tuned....if they just simply loaded a map....that is NO GOOD...a map is just a starting point for proper tuning.
You air cleaner...did you mean BIG SUCKER???...if so good choice.....the Screamin EEagle air cleaner is way better than stock HD.....but does not hold a candle to the DEEPER K&N filter Ness uses......GOOD CHOICE.

Here are my recommendations on oils..this is an answer for a big twin, but the principles are the same....

As much I love HD....I hate to say it, but HD doesn't know SH*T about synthetic oil. For decades, they said not to run synthetic in their engines.....because of popular demand by the public, HD finally came out with their SYN3 synthetic oil several years ago, but it is honestly not worth a crap. THE BEST 3 SYNTHETICS FOR A HARLEY ARE
#1-AMSOIL, #2-LUCAS, #3-MOBIL1(which is recommended by S&S). I have been working on HD's and building performance engines, drag racing and dyno tuning for 20 years and have been running Amsoil for years, but have recently switched over to Lucas because it is just as good, but a little cheaper. AND THEY DO NOT AND WILL NOT VOID YOUR WARRANTY
FIRST OFF.........DO NOT RUN HD SYN3.....IT'S JUNK.........I AM A CERTIFIED HD TECH, AND I WILL TELL YOU FIRST HAND....HD DOESN'T KNOW JACK ABOUT OILS!!!!!!!!!
For deacdes, HD said to never run synthetic in their engines, their reason....it will cause the bearings to "skate".........but ask anyone on the drag strip running a top fuel 800+ HP engine what they run.......FULL SYNTHETIC.......their bearings don't skate!!!
By popular demand of the public, HD finally released their SYN3 back in the early 2000's......manufactured by Sunoco. SO........As the other guys have said, synthetic does make your engine run cooler and lubricates much better than standard oil.
The best synthetic to run is 1) AMSOIL or LUCAS 2) Mobil 1
It is ok to run the same synthetic in the primary as you do the engine.......but NEVER use that same oil in the trans. HD says you can, but it makes the trans hard to shift and noisy......run minimum 75/90 gear oil......the absolute hands down best trans oil on the market is RED LINE HEAVY full synthetic Shockproof ...it will make your trans runs smoother, quiter and shift easier.
Source(s):

20yr HD Tech. MMI Grad 1991 and 2009. Factory trained by HD (Buell Certified), Big Dog, American Ironhorse, Titan, and Indian"
 
  #12  
Old 03-21-2011, 08:48 PM
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That's what we said but different
 
  #13  
Old 03-21-2011, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BradyG
Mechanic at C&C Cycles in Cowpens told me yesterday that I could change the headers and slip-ons to Vance & Hines with no danger of the bike running hot. He said the '11's would compensate for it going lean and there was no worry. What do YOU think about that?
I smell Bullshit! I have the V&H Power Duals with the Monster Rounds. My bike was running hot even in cool weather until I got it tuned. Don't be cheap. Spend $400 now, or spend a lot more later.
 
  #14  
Old 03-22-2011, 12:47 AM
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well the tuner info on the above post is bs as TTS master tune, DJ power vision are but two other tuners that don't piggy back to the ecm but flash it. You most definetly can run syn from the get go in fact harley does on the cvo bikes yada yaday yada
 
  #15  
Old 03-22-2011, 07:47 PM
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Still looking for a better answer...
 
  #16  
Old 03-22-2011, 08:10 PM
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If you want somebody to come on here and say "go ahead and do it, it won't hurt anything", I could do that but it would be wrong! You have the answer to your question...NO you can't just throw on a free flowing exhaust system and not expect to have to re tune the factory computer. If you think you can, go ahead, then let us know how it turns out. I can tell you you're nice shiny chrome heat shields will be blue in no time and the mufflers will be next, it will get too damn hot!
You could probably just do the mufflers if you want to wait for the rest, that I would and have done but not on a bike with the catalytic head pipe (my disclaimer).
 

Last edited by Eddie Haskell; 03-22-2011 at 08:19 PM. Reason: added the last part
  #17  
Old 03-22-2011, 08:34 PM
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In God we trust, all others use data. In my shop I have an infrared heat sensor. Will track the temperature and if I see an increase in temp, will drop in the tuner. Guess that's all we need to say about that.
 
  #18  
Old 03-22-2011, 08:58 PM
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If you leave the stock air cleaner alone, you should be okay. The motor will still be choked enough.
 
  #19  
Old 03-22-2011, 09:01 PM
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The 20 year MMI Certified Mechanic also said not to use a tuner that eliminated the O2 sensors. The PCV setup that Fuel Moto uses calls for disconnecting the O2 sensors. I have always heard that the O2 sensors are only used to detect and/or make changes within a very narrow band, and even then at very small amounts.
 
  #20  
Old 03-22-2011, 09:03 PM
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I run the V&H power duals with twin slash ovals along with the power pak and a screamin eagle a/c on my 10 Limited, put em on when the power duals first came out for the 10 model, it took V&H some time before they dialed in the right map for it because they had not run the numbers for the set up when I first did the install. to me the bike sounds and runs strong along with less heat from the cat and the choked up stock pipes. At some point cams will probably get slid in and then I will use my brand new se racetuner i have sitting on the bench then off to the dyno for a true dial in. for now the easy route is working fine and I did all the work myself and the fuel pak is tit to set up, ride safe and good luck on your choices,,..o~ ' o
 


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