Originally Posted by ke5rbd

It takes however long it takes to install the tune and do at least one test ride. I do not use the wide band sensors. If using PV I will do a data log and make sure timing is ok. Wide band sensors have nothing to do with the timing other than changing a lean condition to stop ping sometimes. If timing is too high the best tuner around won't stop it without reducing the timing some.

We are totally Hijacking this thread and if you would like to continue please either send private message or start a new thread. The problem the op had had very little to do with the map or tuner and absolutely nothing to do with The T Max and Alpha N. I won't reply to anymore posts that don't pertain to the subject of this post.

Originally Posted by bwoltz

OK,, I guess no takers from the flash programming side.. I've always seen it as pretty painful.. Willing to be enlightened but all I see is darkness.. :-)

Well, I guess you've already determined this will be painful. Go into the EFI topic with that mindset will only cause you more pain.

Anyway one the easiest tuners to use is from Thunderheart.. They've been around for something like 20 years.. They use to make controls/ ignitions / electronics for the semi-custom vendors back in the late 90s / early 2000s. They and Zippers Performance came up with the TPS based system for the Delphi systems some time on 2002-3. Generation 1s were mostly open loop. Gen2s were open and closed..

They sort of used to claim that the Gen 2 systems auto tuned it's self.. Technically all it really does is set the correct AFR (which is programmable)..

And there's one of the marketing claims many have found to be false.

You still need to mess with the timing some but for the most part they have a pretty extensive map collection..

It's pricey and you will need to add 18mm bungs to the head pipes if you don't have ones. You need to know how to load run programs on a PC. Their application is pretty simple to use, much of it is automated..

So, after you remove the exhaust system, cut and weld new bung holes, put it all back together, and then install/run the programs, it's really pretty easy??? Marketing hype number 2...

To use this stuff, for the most part, all you need to do is be able to follow the install directions. You can pick up off their web site and read them over.. You can also install the software and run it to look at the maps..

Typically for the most part, once the system is installed and maps loaded you are done.. You can make tweaks easily if desired but there is no real reason to unless you just like messing with things.

And we have marketing hype number 3. Why in the world would anyone go to all that trouble only to have some off-the-shelf map? The marketing people want you to believe that their map is just right for your machine...hype number 4!

. I run these on 95 ci 02 RKC with 10.8 to 1 cr (currently 220 psi ccp) and an 103 ci 07 EGC (currently 185 ccp). Both bikes have had numerous cams / pipes / throttle bodies. The RKC has had a couple sets of ported heads and the EGC got a good set when it went 103.. Both bikes started out Stage 1 with Tmax and have over 60000 miles on them with tmaxs installed very early on..

The nice thing about this system is when doing minor changes, like pipes and some cams, you don't need to do anything.

Then how do you compensate for the different IVO & IVC when changing cams? You do know that even a "minor" cam change (if it's so minor, why do it???) WILL change the VE's right???

Changing the compression / displacement typically needs a new map or teaks to the current map if you know how to tune.

Support on these systems is excellent.. The SW has a way to collect data and send it directly to Tmax if you have issues.. For the most part, the issues are something else wrong with the bike, like weak fuel pressure or manifold leaks.. The important part is that they will help you when you have issues.. There are 5-6 guys whose main job is to look a logged data and provide answers..

So let me understand this...you're 25 miles from home and the bike begins to have problems. No problem, just log on to their web site and everything will be fixed within minutes. No fuss, no mess.

Sorry, but I'll throw the big BS (and hype number 5) on this one. There's NOTHING like personal knowledge to do your own diag's and repairs when trouble strikes away from the comfort of your garage and computer...and that's normally when it ACTUALLY happens.


Web site:

http://www.thunder-max.com/


This isn't one of those add on tuners that can only handle a stage 1 setup.. They can handle pretty much anything you want for CR / displacement. The system can also do blowers (need a 2 or 3 bar map sensor) and NOS but those are really for the advanced user.