2012 TG ECM "learning ability"
#11
05-11-2012, 01:05 AM
Moderator
Ah yes Mr Wizard, but you need to mention the O2 sensors that need changed out for the wideband sensors. In doing this to keep the price down the header pipes need to be changed out, or new 18mm bungs welded in to replace the newer 12mm narrow band O2's.
You can find 12mm wideband O2's but they are around $1500.00 apiece ! The Commander V auto tuners come with the 18mm sensors, but you must decide which way you want to go with the header pipes. You can also go with a stock '09 header that is 2 into 1 into 2 that has 18mm bungs already, and no cat. Also add a kit for the trike (extension pipe), $69-$79, if the header is for a reg glide and not the trike. Or you can get the aftermarket with the large bungs in either true duals, or the stock style. If you go with the true duals (separate pipes) put in the torque cones at the head of the headers to prevent the backflow, and keep the low end torque.
You also have the option of using just the Commander without the Auto tune add on, but you are stuck with a single fuel map. This might be ok around one area, but if you go into the mountains or maybe down to the desert.......???
There are other brands for fuel management, but that is the one I use.
Just say'n
You can find 12mm wideband O2's but they are around $1500.00 apiece ! The Commander V auto tuners come with the 18mm sensors, but you must decide which way you want to go with the header pipes. You can also go with a stock '09 header that is 2 into 1 into 2 that has 18mm bungs already, and no cat. Also add a kit for the trike (extension pipe), $69-$79, if the header is for a reg glide and not the trike. Or you can get the aftermarket with the large bungs in either true duals, or the stock style. If you go with the true duals (separate pipes) put in the torque cones at the head of the headers to prevent the backflow, and keep the low end torque.
You also have the option of using just the Commander without the Auto tune add on, but you are stuck with a single fuel map. This might be ok around one area, but if you go into the mountains or maybe down to the desert.......???
There are other brands for fuel management, but that is the one I use.
Just say'n
Last edited by sloufoot; 05-11-2012 at 01:17 AM.
#12
05-11-2012, 08:47 AM
Administrator
Ah yes Mr Wizard, but you need to mention the O2 sensors that need changed out for the wideband sensors. In doing this to keep the price down the header pipes need to be changed out, or new 18mm bungs welded in to replace the newer 12mm narrow band O2's.
You can find 12mm wideband O2's but they are around $1500.00 apiece ! The Commander V auto tuners come with the 18mm sensors, but you must decide which way you want to go with the header pipes. You can also go with a stock '09 header that is 2 into 1 into 2 that has 18mm bungs already, and no cat. Also add a kit for the trike (extension pipe), $69-$79, if the header is for a reg glide and not the trike. Or you can get the aftermarket with the large bungs in either true duals, or the stock style. If you go with the true duals (separate pipes) put in the torque cones at the head of the headers to prevent the backflow, and keep the low end torque.
You also have the option of using just the Commander without the Auto tune add on, but you are stuck with a single fuel map. This might be ok around one area, but if you go into the mountains or maybe down to the desert.......???
There are other brands for fuel management, but that is the one I use.
Just say'n
You can find 12mm wideband O2's but they are around $1500.00 apiece ! The Commander V auto tuners come with the 18mm sensors, but you must decide which way you want to go with the header pipes. You can also go with a stock '09 header that is 2 into 1 into 2 that has 18mm bungs already, and no cat. Also add a kit for the trike (extension pipe), $69-$79, if the header is for a reg glide and not the trike. Or you can get the aftermarket with the large bungs in either true duals, or the stock style. If you go with the true duals (separate pipes) put in the torque cones at the head of the headers to prevent the backflow, and keep the low end torque.
You also have the option of using just the Commander without the Auto tune add on, but you are stuck with a single fuel map. This might be ok around one area, but if you go into the mountains or maybe down to the desert.......???
There are other brands for fuel management, but that is the one I use.
Just say'n
Sorry, why would I mention anything about the above??
#13
05-11-2012, 07:16 PM
Moderator
[quote=Mr. Wizard;9786532]Welcome to the site. But...
Sorry, why would I mention anything about the above??[/quote
The discussion got to the point of a self tuning process of the ECM. And to do any effective self tuning the stock ECM can't do you must go to a fuel management add on. To do any broad auto tuning you are going to need to get away from the narrow band O2's, or otherwise you are stuck with a single, or maybe two map control. Not auto tune.
To get away from the narrow band O2's you are going to have to change something. Or am I incorrect ?
Sorry, why would I mention anything about the above??[/quote
The discussion got to the point of a self tuning process of the ECM. And to do any effective self tuning the stock ECM can't do you must go to a fuel management add on. To do any broad auto tuning you are going to need to get away from the narrow band O2's, or otherwise you are stuck with a single, or maybe two map control. Not auto tune.
To get away from the narrow band O2's you are going to have to change something. Or am I incorrect ?
#15
05-11-2012, 09:27 PM
What I'm saying, and mentioned in another thread, is that I have been told by engineers I respect that you can change out the stock mufflers for slipons and lose the cat without having to retune. Just don't mess with the A/C and they say you'll be OK. One of these guys makes his living in the motorcycle fuel enrichment business, for crying out loud! (This same guy says that people would be surprised how much air the stock A/C flows, and any gain from a more open one comes at 3500+ RPM anyway. I'm also saying that an American Iron article say the same thing and prints the dyno runs as proof. Here's the link to the article:
http://www.americancustom.com/media/news/AmerCustom.pdf
What I'm not saying is whether i have any idea that any of this is true, but it is hard to believe that credible sources with a stake in the game would hold this forth if it was not true. I would further say that any evidence presented to contradict this contains data that is somewhat meaningless to me as a guy who just wants a scoot that runs good and is reliable. If it's one's hobby or profession to understand such data that's fine; it just isn't mine.
I will say that I believe it enough to at least give it a try. I'll know soon enough if it isn't true, and the first thing I'll do is try a set of XIEDs. If that doesn't do it I'll humbly yell calf rope and start looking for a tuner.
#16
05-11-2012, 09:37 PM
#17
05-11-2012, 10:14 PM
Administrator
Comments in blue below.
The discussion got to the point of a self tuning process of the ECM. And to do any effective self tuning the stock ECM can't do you must go to a fuel management add on. Actually you would use a Tuning Device but not all of them are add on systems.
To do any broad auto tuning you are going to need to get away from the narrow band O2's, or otherwise you are stuck with a single, or maybe two map control. Not auto tune. True, auto tune systems use wide band 02 sensors if you like piggyback tuning devices or want to change the factory ECM.
To get away from the narrow band O2's you are going to have to change something. Or am I incorrect ?You are correct but this is not the only way.
There is no need to change to expensive auto tune devices when you have the capabilities of factory ECM and the Adaptive Learning Values which is so much smarter than any piggy back or plug in device on the market. This also includes replacement ECM systems in my opinion.
The discussion got to the point of a self tuning process of the ECM. And to do any effective self tuning the stock ECM can't do you must go to a fuel management add on. Actually you would use a Tuning Device but not all of them are add on systems.
To do any broad auto tuning you are going to need to get away from the narrow band O2's, or otherwise you are stuck with a single, or maybe two map control. Not auto tune. True, auto tune systems use wide band 02 sensors if you like piggyback tuning devices or want to change the factory ECM.
To get away from the narrow band O2's you are going to have to change something. Or am I incorrect ?You are correct but this is not the only way.
There is no need to change to expensive auto tune devices when you have the capabilities of factory ECM and the Adaptive Learning Values which is so much smarter than any piggy back or plug in device on the market. This also includes replacement ECM systems in my opinion.
#18
05-11-2012, 11:44 PM
Moderator
Yeah, that may be true about the OEM ECM , but I wanted to get rid of a bunch of heat and improve the performance at all altitudes I may be driving in without having to have the ECM changed every few thousand feet elevation. Things happen like below sea level to 8000ft above or more. Without the auto tune feature you have to do something. Sometimes I am riding in 110 deg plus low low elevation. You know what that can cause ! The lean burn program it comes with, I didn't want to have to fight. Also if things need improvement I can do that with my laptop. Without buying the kit (software)from Harley and the cables also.
So far everything has worked like a charm. Also there is a definite improvement in the power ! BIG TIME ! And so far better millage if I can keep good gas in the tank.
I didn't go with a fancy AC either, just a K&N filter, and stock Muffs. They are louder, but I like to listen to the stereo on trips, so they are just fine without the cat. And my oil temp is running around 190-210. I have Amsoil 20/50 before and after so that didn't cure all of the heat.
So far everything has worked like a charm. Also there is a definite improvement in the power ! BIG TIME ! And so far better millage if I can keep good gas in the tank.
I didn't go with a fancy AC either, just a K&N filter, and stock Muffs. They are louder, but I like to listen to the stereo on trips, so they are just fine without the cat. And my oil temp is running around 190-210. I have Amsoil 20/50 before and after so that didn't cure all of the heat.
#19
05-12-2012, 03:44 AM
Yeah, that may be true about the OEM ECM , but I wanted to get rid of a bunch of heat and improve the performance at all altitudes I may be driving in without having to have the ECM changed every few thousand feet elevation. Things happen like below sea level to 8000ft above or more. Without the auto tune feature you have to do something. Sometimes I am riding in 110 deg plus low low elevation. You know what that can cause ! The lean burn program it comes with, I didn't want to have to fight. Also if things need improvement I can do that with my laptop. Without buying the kit (software)from Harley and the cables also.
#20
05-12-2012, 08:08 AM
OK, this is getting tecnical so ill chime in here, on the lighter side.
Without messing with the tuner what it ammounts to is the Gizins equal the gizouts.
keep the stock restrictive pipes and change the AC and you still only get so much in and out, change the pipes and leave the AC same thing. Change both and you get a higher gizin and a higher gizout, which will more than likley be out of tuning range of the stock ECM without a map change.
Ok, made sense to me, .
Where's the Root Beer
Without messing with the tuner what it ammounts to is the Gizins equal the gizouts.
keep the stock restrictive pipes and change the AC and you still only get so much in and out, change the pipes and leave the AC same thing. Change both and you get a higher gizin and a higher gizout, which will more than likley be out of tuning range of the stock ECM without a map change.
Ok, made sense to me, .
Where's the Root Beer