2012 TG ECM "learning ability"
#21
05-12-2012, 09:13 AM
Administrator
M Senior has your Root Beer IB. He sent me a note that he will be filling a trailer with ice and packing them cold for the trip to Maggy. Good news about that is they will not be Diet!!
M3... Unless I'm totally off base I believe our friend is using a PCV with auto. As far as the altitude adjustments, you are correct. The MAP sensor will tell the ECM all barometer/altitude changes. The PCV didn't snip the wires on that as it does in other cases to fool the ECM into thinking all is hunky-dory. Again, unless I'm totally off base the ECM will again step in for bad gas or altitude pinging with AKR (Adaptive Knock Retard) which a piggyback tuner can't do. When knock is acquired the ECM senses via ION and reduces timing only in that area to protect the motor. As the altitude changes and bad gas is replaced the knock retard values are slowly removed to their original settings with each key on-key off of the bike, again via the stock ECM.
There are many threads discussing which sensor is better for a Harley, wide band narrow band. Aftermarket products use wide band, HD uses narrow band. Analyzing the differences I find there are no real values switching from one to the other. The wide band just is that, the range view is wider but this wider range has no increased effect if your bike is tuned within efficiency ranges with a flash tuner or an auto tuning device as it zero's in your Lambed or AFR cells. The largest difference is the VE tables are not set with a auto-tune device which is a huge part of the calculation of air fuel mixture and the majority of why stock ECM calibrations are lean.
Anyway... enough of that. What is important here is that the rider/owner is happy with the set up he has and his riding enjoyment is plentiful.
-wiz out
M3... Unless I'm totally off base I believe our friend is using a PCV with auto. As far as the altitude adjustments, you are correct. The MAP sensor will tell the ECM all barometer/altitude changes. The PCV didn't snip the wires on that as it does in other cases to fool the ECM into thinking all is hunky-dory. Again, unless I'm totally off base the ECM will again step in for bad gas or altitude pinging with AKR (Adaptive Knock Retard) which a piggyback tuner can't do. When knock is acquired the ECM senses via ION and reduces timing only in that area to protect the motor. As the altitude changes and bad gas is replaced the knock retard values are slowly removed to their original settings with each key on-key off of the bike, again via the stock ECM.
There are many threads discussing which sensor is better for a Harley, wide band narrow band. Aftermarket products use wide band, HD uses narrow band. Analyzing the differences I find there are no real values switching from one to the other. The wide band just is that, the range view is wider but this wider range has no increased effect if your bike is tuned within efficiency ranges with a flash tuner or an auto tuning device as it zero's in your Lambed or AFR cells. The largest difference is the VE tables are not set with a auto-tune device which is a huge part of the calculation of air fuel mixture and the majority of why stock ECM calibrations are lean.
Anyway... enough of that. What is important here is that the rider/owner is happy with the set up he has and his riding enjoyment is plentiful.
-wiz out
Last edited by Mr. Wizard; 05-12-2012 at 10:06 AM.
#22
05-12-2012, 10:05 AM
Road Warrior
Does the ECM on an otherwise stock 2012 TG have the ability to "learn" or adapt to installing a catless headpipe and slipons? The air cleaner would be left stock.
I think it's pretty well accepted that it can learn slipons by themselves, I'm just wondering if it can learn the combination of the two.
I'm having an exhaust manufacturer tell me that it will work fine and will yield a significant heat reduction and power boost to boot.
I think it's pretty well accepted that it can learn slipons by themselves, I'm just wondering if it can learn the combination of the two.
I'm having an exhaust manufacturer tell me that it will work fine and will yield a significant heat reduction and power boost to boot.
#23
05-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Administrator
I don't believe that the ecm will even have enough range to adjust for slip ons. If the exhaust manufacturer told you that you also needed to remap your bike that may hurt sales. If it doesn't need to be remapped then the pipe doesn't work. Here is a screen shot of the change required just changing the size of baffles. The bike was tuned with quieter baffles and then the owner went one size bigger. It was then ridden for at least 3000 miles, plenty of time for the ecm to "learn". I then retuned and you can see the change. The highlighted cell has been richened by .5 afr. Any bike will benefit by being properly tuned.
The first graph is a VE table change after adding simple aftermarket slipon mufflers.
The second graph is two months later when the owner added a set of aftermarket head pipes using the same mufflers... still running his stock air cleaner.
Do you remember when I spoke earlier of "efficiency" and tuning is not just about adding fuel? The graphs are from the rear cylinder. Notice all the (-) numbers removing the calculated air which reduces fuel.
..btw... for you guys that don't know LW.. He is a top notch Dyno Dude in Canada and a highly valued technical member of our site... Hope you are doing well Mr. R.
#24
05-12-2012, 10:33 AM
OK, this is getting tecnical so ill chime in here, on the lighter side.
Without messing with the tuner what it ammounts to is the Gizins equal the gizouts.
keep the stock restrictive pipes and change the AC and you still only get so much in and out, change the pipes and leave the AC same thing. Change both and you get a higher gizin and a higher gizout, which will more than likley be out of tuning range of the stock ECM without a map change.
Ok, made sense to me, .
Where's the Root Beer
Without messing with the tuner what it ammounts to is the Gizins equal the gizouts.
keep the stock restrictive pipes and change the AC and you still only get so much in and out, change the pipes and leave the AC same thing. Change both and you get a higher gizin and a higher gizout, which will more than likley be out of tuning range of the stock ECM without a map change.
Ok, made sense to me, .
Where's the Root Beer
Butch
#25
05-12-2012, 11:17 AM
I don't believe that the ecm will even have enough range to adjust for slip ons. If the exhaust manufacturer told you that you also needed to remap your bike that may hurt sales. If it doesn't need to be remapped then the pipe doesn't work. Here is a screen shot of the change required just changing the size of baffles. The bike was tuned with quieter baffles and then the owner went one size bigger. It was then ridden for at least 3000 miles, plenty of time for the ecm to "learn". I then retuned and you can see the change. The highlighted cell has been richened by .5 afr. Any bike will benefit by being properly tuned.
To match what LW is saying, view these graphs from a '12 Ultra Limited with a 103.
The first graph is a VE table change after adding simple aftermarket slipon mufflers.
The second graph is two months later when the owner added a set of aftermarket head pipes using the same mufflers... still running his stock air cleaner.
Do you remember when I spoke earlier of "efficiency" and tuning is not just about adding fuel? The graphs are from the rear cylinder. Notice all the (-) numbers removing the calculated air which reduces fuel.
..btw... for you guys that don't know LW.. He is a top notch Dyno Dude in Canada and a highly valued technical member of our site... Hope you are doing well Mr. R.
The first graph is a VE table change after adding simple aftermarket slipon mufflers.
The second graph is two months later when the owner added a set of aftermarket head pipes using the same mufflers... still running his stock air cleaner.
Do you remember when I spoke earlier of "efficiency" and tuning is not just about adding fuel? The graphs are from the rear cylinder. Notice all the (-) numbers removing the calculated air which reduces fuel.
..btw... for you guys that don't know LW.. He is a top notch Dyno Dude in Canada and a highly valued technical member of our site... Hope you are doing well Mr. R.
Without using a table or graph of any kind, or using terms like "VE, cells" etc. that the average guy may not be interested in, can anyone categorically refute the AI article that I have referenced? I mean, it has dyno results in black and white.
Are these guys making this stuff up to sell mags?
And I ask again, if you say the article is all wrong but can't explain it in easy to understand dyno and seat-of-the-pants language, then is it really wrong or is it just a case of a very knowledgeable person dissecting the results in a way that isn't necessary for the average guy who just wants a reliable scoot that runs a little better and cooler?
Again, I'm not challenging anyone's knowledge or veracity here. I readily admit my ignorance. I just don't have the time, interest or ability to get deep into the weeds with charts and graphs but at the same time I don't want to do anything stupid to my trike. Nor do I want to spend more than I have to, and that seems to be the point of the AI article. So in layman's language, why shouldn't I listen to what they say?
#26
05-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Administrator
But guys, work with me a little here.
Without using a table or graph of any kind, or using terms like "VE, cells" etc. that the average guy may not be interested in, can anyone categorically refute the AI article that I have referenced? I mean, it has dyno results in black and white.
Are these guys making this stuff up to sell mags?
And I ask again, if you say the article is all wrong but can't explain it in easy to understand dyno and seat-of-the-pants language, then is it really wrong or is it just a case of a very knowledgeable person dissecting the results in a way that isn't necessary for the average guy who just wants a reliable scoot that runs a little better and cooler?
Again, I'm not challenging anyone's knowledge or veracity here. I readily admit my ignorance. I just don't have the time, interest or ability to get deep into the weeds with charts and graphs but at the same time I don't want to do anything stupid to my trike. Nor do I want to spend more than I have to, and that seems to be the point of the AI article. So in layman's language, why shouldn't I listen to what they say?
Without using a table or graph of any kind, or using terms like "VE, cells" etc. that the average guy may not be interested in, can anyone categorically refute the AI article that I have referenced? I mean, it has dyno results in black and white.
Are these guys making this stuff up to sell mags?
And I ask again, if you say the article is all wrong but can't explain it in easy to understand dyno and seat-of-the-pants language, then is it really wrong or is it just a case of a very knowledgeable person dissecting the results in a way that isn't necessary for the average guy who just wants a reliable scoot that runs a little better and cooler?
Again, I'm not challenging anyone's knowledge or veracity here. I readily admit my ignorance. I just don't have the time, interest or ability to get deep into the weeds with charts and graphs but at the same time I don't want to do anything stupid to my trike. Nor do I want to spend more than I have to, and that seems to be the point of the AI article. So in layman's language, why shouldn't I listen to what they say?
You are looking for one of us to call them liars. That's not going to happen in this day and age anywhere on the net in black and white. This thread is showing you, in as about as simple language as possible, that the first thing you should invest in is a Tuning Device. Stock Trike or Heavily Modified Trike the first step is a Tuning Device.
Decating a HD head pipe will give you an extra 4 or 5 HP and maybe 8 lbs of TQ. Doesn't matter who's product you use.
The statement "The Stock OEM ECM will adjust to these minor changes" is misleading. They never said it would adjust completely nor did is say anything about cooling your bike. Then toss in the factor of, drum roll please... The stock calibration in the ECM that is already lean and the fact that your Trike is already kicking into EITMS shows your factory calibration needs attention long before you decat or change mufflers.
That's about it in a nut shell. That article reeks "BUY ME". It's an Advertisement/Tech Tip. It doesn't fix your Trike, make it cooler or keep it from kicking into EITMS.
#27
05-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Here's a direct answer. That article is an advertisement.
You are looking for one of us to call them liars. That's not going to happen in this day and age anywhere on the net in black and white. This thread is showing you, in as about as simple language as possible, that the first thing you should invest in is a Tuning Device. Stock Trike or Heavily Modified Trike the first step is a Tuning Device.
Decating a HD head pipe will give you an extra 4 or 5 HP and maybe 8 lbs of TQ. Doesn't matter who's product you use.
The statement "The Stock OEM ECM will adjust to these minor changes" is misleading. They never said it would adjust completely nor did is say anything about cooling your bike. Then toss in the factor of, drum roll please... The stock calibration in the ECM that is already lean and the fact that your Trike is already kicking into EITMS shows your factory calibration needs attention long before you decat or change mufflers.
That's about it in a nut shell. That article reeks "BUY ME". It's an Advertisement/Tech Tip. It doesn't fix your Trike, make it cooler or keep it from kicking into EITMS.
You are looking for one of us to call them liars. That's not going to happen in this day and age anywhere on the net in black and white. This thread is showing you, in as about as simple language as possible, that the first thing you should invest in is a Tuning Device. Stock Trike or Heavily Modified Trike the first step is a Tuning Device.
Decating a HD head pipe will give you an extra 4 or 5 HP and maybe 8 lbs of TQ. Doesn't matter who's product you use.
The statement "The Stock OEM ECM will adjust to these minor changes" is misleading. They never said it would adjust completely nor did is say anything about cooling your bike. Then toss in the factor of, drum roll please... The stock calibration in the ECM that is already lean and the fact that your Trike is already kicking into EITMS shows your factory calibration needs attention long before you decat or change mufflers.
That's about it in a nut shell. That article reeks "BUY ME". It's an Advertisement/Tech Tip. It doesn't fix your Trike, make it cooler or keep it from kicking into EITMS.
Mr. Wizard, when you say decatting the head pipe (I actually have a Fuelmoto pipe ordered) will give you an extra 4-5 HP, are you talking about through the stock mufflers or are you assuming the stock mufflers got changed out at the same time? For the first time I don't mind the sound of the stock mufflers so much and I've heard they will get a little louder with a catless head pipe.
Also, would you hazard a guess as to why the EITMS is kicking in so easily on a 600 mile trike? I'm wondering whether I should take it on in now as oppose to the 1K. Don't want to do any long term damage.
Also, I've been keeping a check on the oil and up till now it hasn't needed any, but after the 125 mile run yesterday it needed a little over half a quart.
#28
05-12-2012, 01:18 PM
Administrator
See notes in blue below.
NOW WE"RE TALKING!! Language I can understand! Thank you!
Mr. Wizard, when you say decatting the head pipe (I actually have a Fuelmoto pipe ordered) will give you an extra 4-5 HP, are you talking about through the stock mufflers or are you assuming the stock mufflers got changed out at the same time? For the first time I don't mind the sound of the stock mufflers so much and I've heard they will get a little louder with a catless head pipe. Not assuming anything, just pulling out the cat will be like pulling a potato out of your car exhaust pipe on Halloween. The motor will begin to breath better and your stock ac will be used more aggressively (more air) and your stock mufflers will be a touch louder with a little deeper exhaust note. There will be more HP/TQ gain depending on the quality of the head pipe and the collector.
Also, would you hazard a guess as to why the EITMS is kicking in so easily on a 600 mile trike? I'm wondering whether I should take it on in now as oppose to the 1K. Don't want to do any long term damage.Take it in to see Jason (assuming you use Killer). Tell him that the EITMS is kicking in prematurely and have them check out the Trike as soon as possible. Check to see if the ECM Calibration ID is the most current. Seems I remember there was a change to enrichen the too lean condition the ECM has once upon a time. When you are done, go see Mark or Daniel at the parts counter and buy that TTS that's hanging on the wall behind them or order one online though one of the sponsors here for better pricing. That should have been your first purchase after buying the Trike.
Also, I've been keeping a check on the oil and up till now it hasn't needed any, but after the 125 mile run yesterday it needed a little over half a quart.Using/loosing oil during break in isn't unusual. Just keep an eye on it. If you plan on doing any long hauls, carry a qt with you.
Mr. Wizard, when you say decatting the head pipe (I actually have a Fuelmoto pipe ordered) will give you an extra 4-5 HP, are you talking about through the stock mufflers or are you assuming the stock mufflers got changed out at the same time? For the first time I don't mind the sound of the stock mufflers so much and I've heard they will get a little louder with a catless head pipe. Not assuming anything, just pulling out the cat will be like pulling a potato out of your car exhaust pipe on Halloween. The motor will begin to breath better and your stock ac will be used more aggressively (more air) and your stock mufflers will be a touch louder with a little deeper exhaust note. There will be more HP/TQ gain depending on the quality of the head pipe and the collector.
Also, would you hazard a guess as to why the EITMS is kicking in so easily on a 600 mile trike? I'm wondering whether I should take it on in now as oppose to the 1K. Don't want to do any long term damage.Take it in to see Jason (assuming you use Killer). Tell him that the EITMS is kicking in prematurely and have them check out the Trike as soon as possible. Check to see if the ECM Calibration ID is the most current. Seems I remember there was a change to enrichen the too lean condition the ECM has once upon a time. When you are done, go see Mark or Daniel at the parts counter and buy that TTS that's hanging on the wall behind them or order one online though one of the sponsors here for better pricing. That should have been your first purchase after buying the Trike.
Also, I've been keeping a check on the oil and up till now it hasn't needed any, but after the 125 mile run yesterday it needed a little over half a quart.Using/loosing oil during break in isn't unusual. Just keep an eye on it. If you plan on doing any long hauls, carry a qt with you.
#29
05-12-2012, 04:58 PM
OK, this is getting tecnical so ill chime in here, on the lighter side.
Without messing with the tuner what it ammounts to is the Gizins equal the gizouts.
keep the stock restrictive pipes and change the AC and you still only get so much in and out, change the pipes and leave the AC same thing. Change both and you get a higher gizin and a higher gizout, which will more than likley be out of tuning range of the stock ECM without a map change.
Ok, made sense to me, . Where's the Root Beer
Without messing with the tuner what it ammounts to is the Gizins equal the gizouts.
keep the stock restrictive pipes and change the AC and you still only get so much in and out, change the pipes and leave the AC same thing. Change both and you get a higher gizin and a higher gizout, which will more than likley be out of tuning range of the stock ECM without a map change.
Ok, made sense to me, .
Where's the Root BeerLast edited by oldmsocko; 05-12-2012 at 05:04 PM.
