Hello. I've been looking into upgrading the engine in my 96ci '07 Fat Boy (11k miles) to improve low to mid-range torque. I found the SE 103ci Stage I Big Bore Kit (HD part no. 29903-07A - it's the Stage I kit with no cams) for half price, so I purchased it. It includes the SE Stage I high flow air filter kit (part no. 29440-99D), but I already have that on my Fat Boy. I also have V&H Big Shots Long pipes. This is my first engine upgrade, so I'm probably overly cautious. Here's the quote I received from a local HD dealer, with the work to be done by a particular mechanic who was recommended to me:

Stage I Kit (22903-07A) - already purchased. It has flat-top pistons.
Torrington Cam Bearings, part no. 0924-01074 (2): $12.50
Exhaust Valves, part no. 0926-0196: $46.70
Zipper's 3" air filter (fits my existing mounting plate/cover): $58.45
HD Quick Install Pushrods: $132.25
SE Beehive Valve Springs, part no. 18013-03A: $134.95
HD Cam Cover Gasket, part no. 25244-99A: $5.31
HD Super Tuner, part no. 32109-08B (replaces my V&H FuelPak): $413.95
Gasket Head, part no. DS-172104: $38.65
Tuning Labor, 2 Hours: $139.00
Engine Labor, 15 Hours: $1,042.50
Shop Supplies: $25.00
Deck Heads by 0.060, send out: $100.00
Port Heads, send out: $725.00
Woods TW-7H Cams: $390.00

Subtotal: $3,311.61
Tax: $215.28
Total: $3,526.89

Parts are 10% off retail (total savings of $142.29). Labor is $69.50/hour.

Here's what else the mechanic told me:

(1) No need to install compression release valves since compression, with the flat top pistons, will be about 10:1. He will use compression release valves only if he's at or above 10.5:1. (2) Bulk of TQ curve will be from 2k to 3.5k rpm. Peak TQ around 3k to 3.5k rpm. (3) He will tune at every throttle %, from 1% to 100%. (4) He said something about cam overlap, which he says briefly opens both valves which creates a low pressure vacuum which improves intake.

I'm not concerned about the price of the parts, as I can probably find most of them for less elsewhere, and the mechanic is fine with installing parts I bring in. But does the number of labor hours seem right?

Most importantly for me, does this setup look good for my purpose (decent increase in low to mid-range TQ)? I'm sure there is plenty else I can get done, but this is already above what I wanted to spend.

Thanks for your input.

 

JMHO but if you are looking for a "decent increase in low to mid range TQ", there is a cheaper and simpler solution. Sometimes we try to overthink these performance upgrades and forget that we are dealing with a 100 year old design; basically a tractor motor with a few bells and whistles that has limitations.

I have re-worked your parts list to reflect a recommendation that will save you some money and achieve the goal of low to midrange increase; check it out.

Big changes are the deletion of head porting, new valves/springs and Woods 7H cams. Your heads flow fairly well and, depending on mileage, you might want to freshen up the valve job and replace the guide seals, otherwise you are good to go. The '06 and later heads would surely benefit from a proper port job but what I am saying is that you don't need flow above .500" lift to acheive your goal, so why pay for it? You need low to mid lift flow and those heads just aren't that bad there. That also means you don't need cams with .575" lift which means you don't need new springs.

You can further reduce your cost by using your stock pushrods if you install a cams with the same base circle as the OEM cams. Cut to the chase; Woods cams perform but they are noisy. Install a set of Andrews 37s, use your stock heads with new multi angle valve job and new guide seals, install with a .030" head gasket (not H-D) and your stock pushrods and be done.

BTW, you can save 20% off retail by buying the H-D parts from Zanottis but you are not buying that much so not a big deal. Buyiing the BB kit at 50% off was a good move.

Now to the other questions:

I would install compression releases. Don't disagree that they are not "needed" but they are cheap and very nice to have when you need them. If you use them al the time, your batter and starter life will be extended.

The mechanics comments about TQ, overlap, tuning, etc. are standard stuff. Suggest that when the build is done, you get a "breakin" tune, just a few low and mid throttle pulls to set the AFR. Put 1000 miles on the build and return for a full tune.

You are talking about top end/cam replacement labor. The guy's rate is reasonable but the shops in my area charge 8 hours for a standard BB upgrade which includes cylnider/piston and cam swap. Might be some negotiating room in the labor hours.

Keep it simple, a .030" head gasket, valve job and new guide seals, your BB kit, Andrews 37 cams and stock pushrods; done and 100/100 easy with nice TQ curve.

BTW, have the piston to cylnder fitment checked before installing; should be checked in torque plates. If the fitment is off, you need to address it.

One final point. If you can substitute the TTS Mastertune for the Super Tuner, that might be a good move; talk to the tuner.

As always, JMHO.

 

Bore to 107", with a set of Wood TW-6-6's, set at 10.25 cr.
Along with that, a set of our Stage III 1.940" valve heads.
115 hp 120 ft/lbs.
Not only does it hit coming off the bottom, but will continue to march into the upper rpm band, id so desired.
H-D of Bowling Green, Kentucky, will testify to that.
Scott

 

$3,500 is at least half again too much for what you want to do (i.e., you shouldn't be spending much more than around $2,000 - $2,500) ... especially if you're already supplying the cylinders and pistons ....

Although it would be nice to get the additional 4 cubes from 103 to 107 ... you've already got the 103 parts in hand ....

Agree with most of what djl suggested ... reuse your stock pushrods, go with a stock compatible cam (maybe even an Andrews 26 or 21) and you can save the head work (at least for the time being) ....

Another option might be to send your heads out to Hillside or Big Boyz for the head job (go ahead and get compression releases if you're going 10:1 C/R) ... and go with Andrews 48 or Woods 555 cams ....

Good luck ....

R/
'Chop

p.s. I take it this is for a 96" B-type Fat Boy motor ...?

 

Thank you for all of the VERY helpful responses. I think the key word for me here is "overthink," which is what I have been doing. If I'm going to have engine work done, I want it to be worth it, and don't want to be disappointed when it's done. On the other hand, I don't want to be oversold on something which is more than I want or need.

After going to the HD dealer and then reviewing all of your comments, I went to an independent builder (Canton Cylcle, in business for 40 years or so) who recommended no porting, no decking the heads. Rather, he suggests a valve job, 0.030 head gasket, Power Commander, compression release valves, adjustable pushrods (he says not a true necessity but much easier to deal with) and (I think) high-lift springs. However, he also recommended the Wood TW-8 cams (.590 lift), which seems wrong to me based upon the helpful advice all of you have given. That makes me a little uncomfortable going there. Otherwise, this sounds very close to what djl has recommended.

I also spoke to Bob Wood, who says to get SE 5/16 valves, AV&V valve guides, Wood TW-555 cams, Wood high-lift springs, SE primary and secondary cam drive chains, SE tapered pushrods, Power Commander, Torrington cam bearings and 0.030 head gasket. Again, I'm sure this is a great setup, but sounds like more than I need.

And, since I haven't explained my riding style (but should have), my normal weekend riding is on Ohio country roads. I ride a lot of curvy, hilly roads and feel like my 96ci is straining when I want to get up a hill in a hurry. I also like to accelerate quickly out of turns when the road contour/conditions permit, or on open straightaways. I wouldn't describe myself as an aggressive rider, just like to make the most out of the country roads. I also do a fair amount of highway riding and occasionally group riding which, of course, is less agressive. A few overnight trips per riding season, an occasional state HOG rally, and I've been to one National HOG rally (2011-great time). One other thing...seems like I'm always shifting between 5th and 6th gear even on small, gradual inclines. I would like to be able to stay in 6th gear more often.

If I can get about 100/100 with the 0.030 head gasket, Andrews 37H cams, compression release valves and valve job all to go along with my 103 big bore kit, that sounds like the way to go.

What do you think, and will this setup fit my riding style and give me noticeable TQ to put a smile on my face?

One last question (famous last words), can you explain to a novice exactly what a multi-angle valve job means? I want to make sure that the builder does this, so I need to understand exactly what is entailed. Thanks again for the great advice everyone.

 

Call Scott at Hillside, and Jamie Long at Fuel Moto. Get their recommendations for your build.

If it were my bike, I'd keep the 103 jugs and pistons you have, and bolt in a set of Andrews 54 cams. Send the heads to WFO Larry for his stage II package, and bolt it together myself using a .030 head gasket. Tune it and ride.

You went from a thousand dollars on head work, to virtually no head work. There's got to be a happy middle ground.

 

Short answer is yes to the smiles.

If you pull the labor out of #2, you are looking $1500, no ported heads but a tuner and dyno time. If you have basic mechanical skills, tools and a service manual, you can do the job yourself.

Headwork will certainly improve your performance but you can easily hit 100/100 and then some without head work as described in #2. Having said that, if you have another $1000 burning a hole in your pocket, by all means have the heads worked.

A multi angle valve job means different things to different porters but basically it involves finishing the valve seats and multiple angles, 3 to 5, and "radiusng", of a fashion, the seat to improve flow across the seat. IMHO, probably as important an element as the porting. You need to send your heads to a head guy for that; I wouldn't trust the "builder" with the heads.

You can't go wrong with the 54 cam as suggested by B'dude; it is basically the 37 with more lift. If you have the heads worked, the 54 could be a better choice but if you don't port the heads the 37 is the way to go. You won't need adjustable pushrods with this combination either.

The TTS is the best tuner available right now but you should go with what your local dyno guy likes.

Don't forget to have the piston/cylinder fitment checked with torque plates. I have seen .005" OS pistons come in the standard size box.

If you do port the heads and have larger intake valves installed you will need to check valve to piston clearance to insure that the larger valve doesn't strike outside the valve relief in the piston; you may have to open it up.

 

We've worked with Bob Wood cams now for over 15 years, to include several different levels of head work.
Matter of fact just wrapping up a 107"/Stage IV Head/V&H Hi-Po pipe build in the morning.
I do not believe the client is fully aware of what he is getting. hehehe
Scott

 

You can take this advice or not. Your call. It is HOW you ride that makes a difference in how enjoyable that ride may be.

I went from a Heritage to a touring bike. THAT meant I went from no tach to having a tach. From riding the Heritage, I ALWAYS rode at too low of a rpm. When I first got the Touring bike, I continued that practice and tried to ride at 2000 to 2500 rpm. I installed a set of 21's (andrews cams) to bolster that type of riding. Ya know... sounds coll and all...

But, the Street Glide slipped the crank, so I decided to go all out... I built a 107, with 54 cams, had the heads ported, Bosscat exhaust, upgraded clutch, etc.... along with a nice welded crank.

After THAT build, I then learned how to ride a damn HArley.... ride it like any other bike, really! No engine actually LIKES cruising at such low RPMs. WIth the 'build' under me... I could easily tell that my riding style needed to change. I did a simple but VERY effective change... went to 2500-3500 riding range. When those cams came 'on' at about 2800.... it was a completely different bike and experience.

Nowadays, I NEVER use 6th, except for expressways and like to hit decent twisties using 4th. Roads like RT 62 through Amish country, 5th works good. keeps you IN the power range and loads the frame up better, IMHO.

I'm now back to a 100% stock bike, 10 Ultra. But NOW, I ride with the riding style I learned from the built bike and enjoy things more.

cruising rpm for me is NOW 2800-3200. Doing 80mph in 6th is 3000 rpm, so I like to be around there (3K) for ALL riding conditions.

 

Yes, Bob Wood recommended your place to me if I wanted to send the heads out. You're right, I'm not fully aware of what I'm getting. My first run at an upgrade, so I'm trying to learn as I go along.