Thanks Gordon.

I found some information on-line. I read in the TTS manual section 4.7 about using the cam estimator to set up a baseline calibration for the IVO and IVC and then using the Data Master software with the bike on a dyno to finalize the actual IVO and IVC in the calibration.

Since the PV doesn't have a cam estimator, I downloaded the TTS software and input some cam specs in it and selected transfer to the calibration. I didn't see where anything in the calibration changed. Should it have?

I know you said that you noted that your bike was idling at a higher MAP than was stock. Why does it matter what MAP the bike idles at? What does using the cam estimator or sending the MAP to DJ accomplish in the tune? Can I change cams without doing this process? If I do change cams without doing the process will that mess something else up in the calibration?

Thanks.

 

Here you go.

DISCLAIMER Provided purely for comparison purposes, this is my tune for my bike. I have the 57h, a V&H ProPipe with quiet baffles, and the heads have had a street port job on them. If you want to try it, maybe copy your own VE tables in as a starting point.

Remember the setting they changed for the cam is not visible in WinPV.

cheers

 

What Ed said, its a setting, like EITMS on or off for example. Does it matter? well DJ don't have the setting available and the FP3 added it relatively recently and lots of owners have been swopping out cams so I'm not sure. I'm just a user here myself and still learning, but there are many threads in the forums here about such questions, that's the only info I have

 

Having the cam settings changed when changing cams is right on.
DJ informed me of this when I purchased my original PV from them years ago.
The tech was both kind enough and attentive enough to let me know that when I change cams, send in my map along with the new cam settings and they'd adjust the map cam settings and get it back to me (and that it was not a setting I could find in WinPV or the map settings in the PV).
I've done that several times and they've given, most times, a one day turn around. Of course during major national bike events they may take a day or two longer. I try to plan ahead and send them the map before beginning the cam swap, and the new map is back before I'm ready to start re-tuning.
Kudos to DJ for the information.
I might say that FM has provided the same service when purchasing from them as well. Excellent customer service.
Good luck.

 

Thanks bud, appreciated. I'm pretty familiar with tuning, the issue is there is not much out there in the way of comparison files for the 57h on 2012-2015 non touring bikes. the canned maps I have are marginal, getting quite a bit of rear cylinder knock. I had the bike dialed in and running at top of its game before the cam swap so just going through the usual tuning process again.

For me the VE's are easy since I have the Target Tune WBo2 setup and my maps are target tune enabled- so I can't actually run your map (unless I sent it to DJ and have them TT-enable it) but I can use portions of it like timing, CDE, DE, AE etc as needed. helps to see well developed timing maps from others since that is one area you cannot auto tune- it is purely a manual process with logging and tweaking without a dyno. good starting points are important.

The hidden cam settings are a coin toss with who you talk to- there are a lot of guys riding on their stock maps that have been professionally dyno tuned after motor / cam upgrades and they run perfectly fine. until I can actually see some evidence of the setting and some real legitimate tech data on what it does / how it works within HD Delphi, I'm sort of dubious about it.

that is one thing I dislike about HD Delphi- the complete tech details on it are more super secret than spy satellites or nuclear weapons. Also I feel the tuner companies should expose all of the hidden settings for us to see and use.

but again- thanks for the assist with sharing your tune. I agree anyone else using it should copy in a set of starting canned VE tables from a canned close tune, then run auto tune from there.

 

The only small bit of info I could find was from a DJ tech. He gave out the following (quoted): "The intake valve open and intake valve close fields are for the crank tooth to start and stop reading the Map sensor. Without a tool to tell you the correct crank tooth, the Map readings may be wrong. We haven’t built a tool for public use yet."

Note the term "may be wrong" - not necessarily always wrong. I personally would love to see the tech details on this subsystem setting.

 

Gordon- one more note, your tune looks very good. I see quite a large difference in the timing maps versus both of the canned maps I got from FM and DJ. your maps are running much lower advance numbers. Was this a canned map to start with?

Your lambda table looks clean and decent. I'd probably change the 14.4's to 13.7 in the idle and off idle areas below 2500 rpm though to keep ET's down in traffic. if you notice any high ET's in the summer it will help. I usually only do 14.1 in the 30-60kpa and 2500-3500 area of the table.

Your VE tables are surprisingly low. I'd expect to see some numbers in the 100-120 ranges at higher MAP and higher RPM especially with the cams and head work. but they all look to be at relatively stock motor VE values. How are your engine temps and spark knock events- have you done any data logging? obviously it's running good for you, just surprised me is all.

Most interesting is your rear cylinder CDE table- which is vastly different than mine in any of the canned tunes. and the rear cylinder is where I'm having all my issues.

 

See that makes perfect sense to me. I presume MAP fluctuates across the engine cycle so presume it is important to read the sensor at the time the intake is open ...new cam, possibly new timing.

Just how important? well possibly not all that, maybe it comes under the heading of "fine tuning"

 

LA_Dog, yea this was a canned map from DJ apart from a couple of minor things all I have done so far is tune the VE tables. I noticed that the spark tables were pretty much stock apart from the usual 80-100kpa 0-2000 and a couple of extra degrees around 60-90kpa 2750-4500. Logging shows no knock what so ever but you would probably expect that given the closeness to stock. I was planning on testing a more radical timing table once I get CDE sorted. What's in the CDE for now is the same as stock 2014 103 non HO. The stock 103 HO rear CDE is quite different.

I had the same couple of thoughts on the VE tables as well...
That horrible dip at 0-low throttle appears no matter what canned map I start with, and did the same thing last year when I was tuning with the FP3. I thought this was maybe CDE which was why I asked in another thread about how to tune CDE

I thought the headwork would have raised the VE tables as well. It has but there are only a few cells that are getting up to 118 compared to pre heads tune that had a max of around 108. The headwork was a Street port with 1.9/1.6 valves, so not as radical as some (which was exactly what I wanted, ultimate top end is not what I'm after)

It was 57 degrees when I was autotuning the other day and I got stuck in road works, ET hit 305 and was still climbing so I pulled over to let it cool. A run yesterday with the tune loaded and not tuning saw similar stop start temps peak at about 290

Lambda table is still to set up so thanks for the pointers there.

One small point btw, we run 95ron fuel over here, not sure if that makes any difference

 

Let's look at some things that are KPA based in the Delphi system.


First is the AFR table. If we look at the target and how it is set up. A couple things are assumed. There is an idle area, there is a light, normal, and heavy cruise area, and then there is WOT and decel. Main spark tables basically have the same areas based on KPA. So, the ECM is polling the sensor at not the opportune time. We could be shifting the whole kpa area up 10. Going down the road. This could put us in the 80 kpa column and the more fuel and less spark that comes with it when actually we should be in the 70 column. Lets also look at just the idle and low speed areas and the break points that are set up to control this area. Idling at 50kpa will shrink the area that we have to work with. There are 15 column break points. If we idle at 50kpa. That gives us 5 columns for decel and 9 to go down the road with. This gives us less cells to map to say idling at 35. This gives us 12 columns to map for going down the road and 2 for decel. Where do you want more break points? For going down the road or for decel?


Now lets look at how closed loop is set up and the limits that are set in KPA. 80kpa is the top limit. We can see that with a 50kpa idle we are biased to the right of the table and this limits the CL area. Idling at 35 gives us more cells to map in CL area.


Adaptive fuel tables: The centering vertical break point in Vision is 47kpa. Any adjustment below 47kpa is going to affect the lower kpa cells. Above 47 the adaptive affects the cells carried out to 100kpa. In order to have this set up and work right. Idling over this break point is only going to affect things on the right side of 47kpa. Making below 47 useless for tuning a area to go down the road.


Addressing when the MAP sensor is polled helps to "center" us in the AFR, spark, and MAP based VE tables for how the system is set up to help us get the most adjustable area for tuning.

Is it absolutely a must have to make the bike run down the road? No. As we know the bike will run down the road targeting 14.7 across the entire AFR table. It will also run with the entire AFR table set at 13.5. That doesn't mean it is running as efficient as it could, or as well as it could.