DYNOJET: High MAP at idle - fixed by Power Vision support
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I just noticed my '07 Deuce, 96", T-man 555 Torqster cams, street ported heads, 10:1 cr, SuperTrapp 2:1 and heavy breather. MPA at idle 33-36. Looks like I need to send the tune to someone?
Let's look at some things that are KPA based in the Delphi system.
First is the AFR table. If we look at the target and how it is set up. A couple things are assumed. There is an idle area, there is a light, normal, and heavy cruise area, and then there is WOT and decel. Main spark tables basically have the same areas based on KPA. So, the ECM is polling the sensor at not the opportune time. We could be shifting the whole kpa area up 10. Going down the road. This could put us in the 80 kpa column and the more fuel and less spark that comes with it when actually we should be in the 70 column. Lets also look at just the idle and low speed areas and the break points that are set up to control this area. Idling at 50kpa will shrink the area that we have to work with. There are 15 column break points. If we idle at 50kpa. That gives us 5 columns for decel and 9 to go down the road with. This gives us less cells to map to say idling at 35. This gives us 12 columns to map for going down the road and 2 for decel. Where do you want more break points? For going down the road or for decel?
Now lets look at how closed loop is set up and the limits that are set in KPA. 80kpa is the top limit. We can see that with a 50kpa idle we are biased to the right of the table and this limits the CL area. Idling at 35 gives us more cells to map in CL area.
Adaptive fuel tables: The centering vertical break point in Vision is 47kpa. Any adjustment below 47kpa is going to affect the lower kpa cells. Above 47 the adaptive affects the cells carried out to 100kpa. In order to have this set up and work right. Idling over this break point is only going to affect things on the right side of 47kpa. Making below 47 useless for tuning a area to go down the road.
Addressing when the MAP sensor is polled helps to "center" us in the AFR, spark, and MAP based VE tables for how the system is set up to help us get the most adjustable area for tuning.
Is it absolutely a must have to make the bike run down the road? No. As we know the bike will run down the road targeting 14.7 across the entire AFR table. It will also run with the entire AFR table set at 13.5. That doesn't mean it is running as efficient as it could, or as well as it could.
I know DJ fixed or changed Gordon's calibration for him. I read in the TTS manual that you can use the cam estimator to get it close. I'm guessing this is what DJ did for Gordon. TTS recommends that you should perform the procedure in section 4.7 of their manual on a dyno to finalize the settings after using the cam estimator. Is there a procedure like that for the PV?
The more I read on here, the more I wish I had purchased the TTS rather than the PV.
Sorry all, I thought this would have been a simple and rather short thread.
The point was simply to say thanks to DJ for helping me out with mine, and to remind those users changing cams and looking for optimal tunes, that even tho TTS and FP3 open those settings to the user, a simple email can also help you out with the PV.
I do agree with the guys that know what they are doing that it would be nice to see DJ open those settings too, but I suspect it might not be as easy as you think ...TTS ideally needs a Dyno for the IVC event and setting the right cam in the FP3 didn't actually lower my MAP so I'm not sure what DJ did to mine.
Originally Posted by oleboy
The more I read on here, the more I wish I had purchased the TTS rather than the PV.
One tuner better than the other, as said many times, they pretty much all give the same results, it depends what you want overall. I'm very happy that DJ tweaked a map for my cam, for example. [and TTS was blooming expensive here in the UK]
cheers all, good discussion
Last edited by Gordon61; 04-27-2016 at 02:49 AM.
Reason: moved quote for clarity of my rubbish thought process
This is a very good thread and a topic not commonly discussed- I think this info will help a lot of others with similar cam swap questions. I have attached my tune maps provided by DJ and FM for a peek at the suggested timing settings. All I really did was send them my current tune map for my stock cam stage1 bike (which ran very well), they changed a few things like the cam events and timing maps, and sent them back to me. DJ did not change my timing maps or VE maps at all. FM tried to give me a more optimal timing map and starting set of VEs. everything else like CDE etc was left the same.
Both produced a lot of spark knock on the rear cylinder in mid to upper rpm / 50kpa and up while the front cyl was doing fine.
the DJ map was so far off on the VEs that my TT auto tune would not tune them.
the FM map tuned VEs ok but ended up maxing out cells and scaled the motor CI to 108.1 to compensate
Let's look at some things that are KPA based in the Delphi system.
First is the AFR table. If we look at the target and how it is set up. A couple things are assumed. There is an idle area, there is a light, normal, and heavy cruise area, and then there is WOT and decel. Main spark tables basically have the same areas based on KPA. So, the ECM is polling the sensor at not the opportune time. We could be shifting the whole kpa area up 10. Going down the road. This could put us in the 80 kpa column and the more fuel and less spark that comes with it when actually we should be in the 70 column. Lets also look at just the idle and low speed areas and the break points that are set up to control this area. Idling at 50kpa will shrink the area that we have to work with. There are 15 column break points. If we idle at 50kpa. That gives us 5 columns for decel and 9 to go down the road with. This gives us less cells to map to say idling at 35. This gives us 12 columns to map for going down the road and 2 for decel. Where do you want more break points? For going down the road or for decel?
Now lets look at how closed loop is set up and the limits that are set in KPA. 80kpa is the top limit. We can see that with a 50kpa idle we are biased to the right of the table and this limits the CL area. Idling at 35 gives us more cells to map in CL area.
Adaptive fuel tables: The centering vertical break point in Vision is 47kpa. Any adjustment below 47kpa is going to affect the lower kpa cells. Above 47 the adaptive affects the cells carried out to 100kpa. In order to have this set up and work right. Idling over this break point is only going to affect things on the right side of 47kpa. Making below 47 useless for tuning a area to go down the road.
Addressing when the MAP sensor is polled helps to "center" us in the AFR, spark, and MAP based VE tables for how the system is set up to help us get the most adjustable area for tuning.
Is it absolutely a must have to make the bike run down the road? No. As we know the bike will run down the road targeting 14.7 across the entire AFR table. It will also run with the entire AFR table set at 13.5. That doesn't mean it is running as efficient as it could, or as well as it could.
this was a very good post- thanks for taking the time. what makes this even harder is for those of us with TPS-based VEs and MAP for the lambda and spark tables. I don't know why HD didn't just keep it all 100% MAP based like the touring bikes.
MAP vs TPS was something to do with one being more accurate for lighter bikes and the other heavier bikes was it not? (can't remember)
So another day having fun with the bike and playing with CDE tables to try to sort those low VE tables that LA_Dog noticed as well (discussion for the other thread) I can add even more fuel to this fire ...I mean to the discussion about MAP (tell me to shut up if no one is interested )
So my low valued VE tables were produced from a tune using the CDE tables from a stock 2014 103B. If you look at the stock map for the 103HO e.g. softail 2016, you will see the CDE tables are significantly different.
EDIT: changed picture shows Stock 2014, what I think FP3 thinks is stock 2016, and what DJ have in their 2016 maps
DJ helped me lower the idle MAP from 42 back to more of a stock 35, but the VE numbers pretty much stayed the same. So not knowing (yet) how to work out CDE I thought I would just try the HO tables EDIT: from the 16S103... DJ maps
Well now, my MAP at idle is down at 29/30 and the VE numbers are much better (though I've not studied them properly yet) and partial throttle response is even better.
I wonder if my MAP is now too low, lol
Just for info I've attached the actual map DJ sent me so forget about the old one I sent with some of my rubbish tuning in it
I just noticed my '07 Deuce, 96", T-man 555 Torqster cams, street ported heads, 10:1 cr, SuperTrapp 2:1 and heavy breather. MPA at idle 33-36. Looks like I need to send the tune to someone?
If it's running fine it's running fine. I wouldn't sweat it since you're in the middle of 30 range.
DISCLAIMER Provided purely for comparison purposes, this is my tune for my bike. I have the 57h, a V&H ProPipe with quiet baffles, and the heads have had a street port job on them. If you want to try it, maybe copy your own VE tables in as a starting point.
Remember the setting they changed for the cam is not visible in WinPV.
cheers
Thanks, I'm comparing it to my tune and the only real change that I see is in the charge dilution and IAC steps
Question. Why wouldn't the change for the cams not be visible in WinPV?
Gordon- here's some more info to bake your mind. So I was in touch with a tuner friend of mine, he does a lot of tuning on HD EFI bikes. Cam upgrades, motor work etc, this guy is a guru. So his take on it is the hidden cam settings are hogwash. Also he runs a lot of bikes with the CDE maps set to 0. This is someone who knows what CDE does and the principals of EGR / reversion and fully analyzes data logs with software such as MLV. He's played with tuning and TTS's cam timing selector, and not seen it make a lick of difference with cam upgrades. For proper tuning he is more concerned with overlap profile of the cam than IVO/IVC.
I'm just bringing this up as it's good to be aware of other points of view from established tuners. This week I'm going to do a compression check on the Breakout just to be sure everything is in order and then try running my regular stage1 map with modified timing and VEs. I'll also give it a try with CDE's set to your tune file values and then set to 0.
04-23-2016, 02:16 PM
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