Basically what you are saying is nothing new or that I don't know. I've read the TTS guide and looked in the software. It does at least give slightly more info and an actual process to play with settings for different cams, and very nice that there is logging, analysis and tuning capability to go with it.

But, to be more clear- there is nothing specifically mentioned about the real underlying setting in the Delphi ecm code and in-depth discussion. It's not documented in any tuning guides or delphi literature. All of the TTS info on cam selector is product specific vs Delphi in general- for example the cam settings are a slider of numbers 1-5 for IVO and IVC. it does not say anything about crank tooth setting or map read on/off setting. it only mentions "getting you in the ballpark" and that it affects the high load region of tune- which is actually quite different than what I'm seeing.

You actually are only assuming TTS is making a change to the crank tooth setting- it may very well be doing something else within their own proprietary tuning code. Nothing wrong with that, if you happen to have a TTS- which I obviously do not.

Also you're assuming the FP3 is changing crank tooth settings with their cam selector widget. You do not know that for sure. Only DJ has specifically stated tweaking this setting in the ecm code for cam changes but will not give out any detail on how it works.

what I'm mainly looking for is unbiased raw tech info on HD Delphi and this specific setting, it's affects and how it is tuned for different cams, and what math that is based on. no one seems to have this info and it is not written anywhere.

I don't know why you are gonna jump in here and brag about your TTS when you know I have a PV, and so does the OP. So wtf is that all about, unless you just feel like being a dick for no reason. How's this - "your tuner is better than the PV for DIY cam upgrades" - big whoop. feel better now?

 

I did not jump in to do anything. I've tried to explain in general why things are the way they are. TTS has had the settings and how they work with full documentation in the product for years. Do I know what the others are doing, NO. I have no need too, but I do know how it is supposed to be done. Does that mean DJ, FP3 or anyone else is doing it correctly, I have no idea. What I can say is that you need to learn how sensors really work and can be used before you can go any further. As for handing out the years of work spent by a manufacture to develop the methodology and technology to do a task correctly I will not be the one doing that. I can however try and point you in the correct direction to understand the end result.

Most people only want/need something to make the adjustments to solve the issue, with directions of how to do it. If your missing those from your device of choice then you need to go back to your supplier to get them. For years it's been said these adjustment do not work, are not needed ect. Well I believe you now know otherwise.

 

Maybe, just maybe I bring up the TTS because anybody can download the programs and manuals for free. Open them and upload a cam tune example file and look at the IVO, and IVC settings. They can also use this same file and play with the analyzer. It is also easy to post cam tune data logs so people can see that not all levels of calibrations have the same amount of break points inside the ECM.


I also understand a lot more people read and follow along over who posts. It isn't all about you. These same guys might understand I have over 8 years of tuning HD's with all the different tuning devices. I'm not just a 57 bolt in cam, VH big radius one hit wonder that hasn't even seen the cam adjustment table in the Vision.


So far we have talked about how cam tune effects idle KPA. Is that all it affects? Are there other items that are directly or indirectly affected? Are there other reasons why a bike can idle and run smother with this set correctly?


..........and your dick comment is not called for. Just because it is easy to type while sitting behind your keyboard doesn't mean it needs to be typed.

 

Forgetting about product for a moment, I don't think I have seen anyone discuss MAP before. Especially that a higher reading [that is LESS suck btw !!?!] might mean some setting somewhere needs to be optimised. And that cam settings were linked to MAP sensors/readings/timings. I kind of worked out last year that it had to, but as Steve pointed out, there has been an awful lot of smoke and mirrors going on here.

Steve, I do thank you for letting us know we are on to something and not just making this up ...but not for the price of the TTS in the UK or I would probably have had one, even if it did need a laptop in my backpack

The TTS manual is indeed a great read and hugely helpful and shame on the rest of them for not having similar. It explains, as you would expect, how TTS users can set their new camshafts. To be perfectly fair here, it does not need to be a theory guide for users of other products that do not have a manual of their own, which is kind of why we are all in here bumping our gums.

err... mind you, I disagree that it (or anywhere else again being fair) tells you how to tune CDE tables. In my testing, a -30% change at 1000 rpm will not INCREASE VE values at 7 and 10 percent throttle position as seems to be shown in the example. If the trend line was that far over, which I doubt, it would reduce the values? Generally I don't see any peaks in the starting topology.

 

So do I need to send my tune to DJ with the cam specs and ask them to do the cam correction thing? Or will they say they don't know what I'm talking about?

 

Well they gave me a good one so they shouldn't say they don't know what you are on about

The more people that ask I suppose the more possibility we will see a setting released for users in the future?

 

I don't get it Steve- why are you responding to a post meant for someone else? or are you both the same person with different logon names?

I enjoyed what you posted, I thought my response to you was pretty clear on why the quest for further info. it is not vendor specific. I recently read over 700 pages of HD Delphi tuning material and there was only one small brief paragraph on SD crank sensor and it's interrelation with motoring engine components- cam position, piston location, tdc, etc. - not one single shred of mention on crank tooth setting and tuning it for different cam event profiles. I think you're missing the bigger picture. you can't learn about something if the material and guidance does not exist.

 

I guess it cannot hurt to ask. Maybe I'm wrong but I have difficulty thinking that DJ has a database with all of the cam spec's out there and they check them with every tune they archive (no disrespect intended, very happy with DJ & FM).

Does a person that dyno tunes have the ability to check and change the cam settings when doing a dyno tune?

 

Well your post is kind dick-ish so don't know how else to put it. you're acting like you know some things for a fact but it's not so. do you know if TTS is affecting the crank tooth setting directly? is FP3? no / maybe / no one knows. It's better to stick to actual facts. Your TTS is awesome for logging and FP3 / PV are not. Again how is that helpful or cool?

I'm a one hit wonder who has never seen a PV cam adjustment table? Where is this magic "cam adjustment table" in the PV? where is mention of that table in the HD Delphi informational material? It does not exist. I believe you are talking about the crank tooth setting (still a mystery), not a cam adjustment table. Anyway, the CRANK TOOTH setting it is not accessible in the PV without a special license and tool from DJ. How would I obtain that smart guy? That is again, a really dick comment. and wrong too.

TTS won't help a non-TTS user understand the CT setting and correctly setting it up or tuning it in on a different product. That's perfectly understandable.

Mr "8 yrs of experience", really seems like this one hit wonder knows a bit more about Delphi than you do. Don't take it all too seriously. A lot of your other posts in threads I have enjoyed. this one not so much. I type like I speak.

 

Right well this was not supposed to be turned into a tuner-product specific topic- it is a Delphi topic in general and should apply equally to any tuning product that works with and adheres to the current SD Delphi EFI system. You assume I or others don't know how the sensors work or have a deeply technical background, but that's not the case. While the TTS cam tuning settings are commendable they will not help anyone not using a TTS.

I'll try and explain this simply so you understand it. What we are talking about here is not the MAP sensor, but the crank position sensor and the ECM software settings surrounding it. When HD did away with the earlier EFI system and dropped use of the cam position sensor, they incorporated internal engine component positioning into the crank position sensor. ECM code was rewritten to support this. The CPS senses rpm, tdc, location of pistons and at what point of stroke, slowing of piston due to chamber compression, position of cam lobes, and most importantly, when to start reading and stop reading the MAP sensor. this is controlled by programming the ECM setting to use specific teeth on the crank for the start and stop of MAP sensor read.
From what I understand, second hand of course, the start and stop of this MAP sensor read must correlate with cam IVO and IVC events- otherwise the entire MAP scale will be off and the bike can run poorly, exhibit high MAP at idle, and low MAP when getting up into higher load ranges of fuel / spark tables. This is not as critical, apparently, for touring bikes and other FBW bikes that strictly use MAP-based VE tables. a good tuner can work around this on a dyno or via log data analysis to come up with decent tune settings / compensate. often times the CDE tables are tuned and that will help eliminate any discrepancy with the new cam events. e.g. it may not be the right way to do it but has worked for the most part.

Where this crank tooth setting and start/stop reading the MAP sensor seems to be most critical is with TP-based VE's on cable throttle bikes. We are already at slight tuning disadvantage with TP-based VE tables and MAP-based spark / fuel tables. If the CPS is not coded correctly for the new cam IVO/ IVC events and correct crank tooth start and stop of reading the MAP sensor, the TP VE's will be off either left or right from the MAP-based tables. This is very loose info, since I don't have much to go on besides second hand facts. but it is not something "tuner product specific", it is specific to SD Delphi EFI opertation.
Anyway my quest here is to find out what this specific crank tooth setting looks like in the ECM code and how to calculate the correct tooth setting values for a given cam profile. No documentation exists on the topic. No one even really knows how to discuss it in depth.

DJ has given me the most information, albeit still very lacking- at least they have alluded to use of a software tool to directly change the crank tooth start / stop of MAP read for different cam IVO/IVC. If they do not have a dyno-developed tune map for a specific cam, the technician attempts to input settings values for the crank tooth MAP sensor read start / stop that they feel may work- a bit of trial and error on their part. So why can't we have access to this setting, and knowledge of how the start / stop of MAP sensor read tooth settings are calculated for a given IVO/IVC, so we can openly do our own fine tuning or re-tuning on cam changes. that's the main part of it. knowledge plus access.

These differences are easily demonstrated by the DJ tune I received for the 57h, which did not run so well, had very high MAP at idle, rear spark knock and incorrect fuel table mapping, versus the 57h tune shared by Gordon which does work much better and idles at normal MAP. Even with the identical 72 table settings put equally into each of the two tune files and their use-accessible fields, they behaved very differently. logged ride data also supports this.