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  #1  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:44 AM
Heatwave Heatwave is offline
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Default Having some challenges with my 110 engine build...Open to suggestions

Here's the situation. I have a 2010 SE Ultra. I had the following build assembled by my local dealer. By using the dealer, he's covering the build under my extended service plan:
  • Heads worked by Hillside Cycle http://www.hillsidecycle.com/
  • SE 58mm tbw Trottle Body
  • Woods 408-6 cams
  • Ventilator Air cleaner
  • SE roller rockers
  • Adj pushrods
  • 5.3 gm/sec injectors
  • Stock exhaust header with cat removed by Fullsacs http://www.fullsac.com/
  • Stock CVO mufflers with stock baffle replaced with 2.25" Fullsac performance baffles
  • Harley Pro Tuner
Before the work was done, my stock engine was 77hp and 100 ft/lbs. Here's the dyno:
Click the image to open in full size.

Next the dealer used the 2010 Harley Race Tuner to dyno tune the bike with the new build. They definitely struggled. Anyone planning to use the new 2010 Race Tuner with Smart Tune should be prepared. The tuning tables have changed dramatically from 2009 since you can no longer tune the engine using VE tables that allow for adjustment using Throttle position and RPMs. The new software is limited to using manifold pressure versus RPMs. And there just aren't enough increments in the available KPA tables.

What this means is that for larger flow engine builds the Harley Race Tuner is a PIA and may never be able to fully tune the bike. The new software is changed to accomodate the cats in the exhaust which no longer make it possible to accurately use an exhaust sniffer when dyno tuning.

The dealer even got the Harley engineers involved to assist in the tuning. At first the bike was running hp and Tq #s around 119/119. But they just couldn't get the low end to run smoothly. After help from the Harley engineers, they were able to generate the results in the attached dyno, 114hp/114Tq. This was a big jump in performance over stock since it added 37 hp and 14 ft/lbs:
Click the image to open in full size.

However after taking the bike out for a several hundred mile ride, it just was not right down low, too much stumbling between 1000 and 2700 rpms which is the last place you need stumbling when slowly negotiating parking lots etc.

They took the bike back and spent many more hours on the dyno with Harley assisting by phone. After multiple dyno tuning sessions, they got the bike to run smoothly throughout the rpms, but they had to sacrifice performance even further. Now they are down to 108 hp and 109 ft lbs. The throttle does function much more smoothly however you can definitely tell higher rpm performance was sacrificed to get there. Here's the most current dyno:
Click the image to open in full size.

The dealer is still not satisified and in fact is sending 2 techs to Harley Race Tuning training in Jan. He's committed to retuning the bike again after they return from training. The Dealer believes they left alot of performance on the table but wanted to make sure the bike was fun to ride between now and when they tune again after training.

Do the experts out there think my exhaust is the issue, the tuner or some combination? Scott at Hillside is confident this build should be close to or over 120hp. So do several other tuners I've spoken to that are recommending moving to Pro-Commander or masterTune. I've already spent the money on the Race Tuner and I would be concerned to add a 3rd party into the build should I have a problem down the road. Right now I'm thinking its best to wait until the dealer's techs go to training and attempt to retune during the winter months.

Looking forward to thoughts from others on best approaches from here to improve the performance from this build.
Attached Thumbnails
Having some challenges with my 110 engine build...Open to suggestions-2010-seuc-stock-dyno-small.jpg   Having some challenges with my 110 engine build...Open to suggestions-second-tuning-run_rough-low-end-small.jpg   Having some challenges with my 110 engine build...Open to suggestions-third-tuning-runs-smooth_-lost-power-small.jpg  
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2010 FLHTCUSE5 (SE Ultra) Scarlet Red/Slate

Detachable TP, Ventilator A/C, Biketronics audio
Hillside Heads, Roller Rockers, Woods 408-6
D&D Boss FatCat 2:1 (w/ ghost) 129hp/129ft-lbs
Bright Ass Smoked Layback tailight

Last edited by Heatwave; 10-18-2009 at 01:27 PM..
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  #2  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:50 AM
skydoc skydoc is offline
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PCV Autotune Wide Band + an experienced dyno tuner!
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  #3  
Old 10-18-2009, 09:51 AM
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UltraKla$$ic UltraKla$$ic is offline
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TO ME, it looks like incompetent tuning as your AFR is still trying to stay lean when you pour the power to it. Looks like the tuner(s) are just beating a canned map to death instead of actually doing your build any good.
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  #4  
Old 10-18-2009, 01:33 PM
Heatwave Heatwave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraKla$$ic View Post
TO ME, it looks like incompetent tuning as your AFR is still trying to stay lean when you pour the power to it. Looks like the tuner(s) are just beating a canned map to death instead of actually doing your build any good.
I agree, but finding "talented" Pro-Tuner techs in my area is like finding a pin in a haystack. Anyone have a recommended tuner familiar with the 2010 Race Tuner in the NJ/NY/Pa area?

Most of the indy's have essentially abandoned the Race Tuner however I don't think it's in my interest to move away from the Race Tuner at least for now). If there's a problem down the road after changing tuning software, I'm absolutely sure everyone will try to blame the other guy. I have no interest in that "game".

I'm open to trying other tuning techs however I just can't find anyone with real experience on the latest Harley race tuner software.
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2010 FLHTCUSE5 (SE Ultra) Scarlet Red/Slate

Detachable TP, Ventilator A/C, Biketronics audio
Hillside Heads, Roller Rockers, Woods 408-6
D&D Boss FatCat 2:1 (w/ ghost) 129hp/129ft-lbs
Bright Ass Smoked Layback tailight
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  #5  
Old 10-18-2009, 01:44 PM
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ryanl ryanl is offline
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Joes Cycle Repair in Mechanicsville NY

or

JD's CycleWorks in Bethlehem PA

or

Rosas Cycle in Huntington, NY

All are good tuners

I know Rosas has done several 110 builds with the 408-6 cams.
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Last edited by ryanl; 10-18-2009 at 03:03 PM..
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2009, 03:06 PM
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UltraKla$$ic UltraKla$$ic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatwave View Post
I agree, but finding "talented" Pro-Tuner techs in my area is like finding a pin in a haystack. Anyone have a recommended tuner familiar with the 2010 Race Tuner in the NJ/NY/Pa area?

Most of the indy's have essentially abandoned the Race Tuner however I don't think it's in my interest to move away from the Race Tuner at least for now). If there's a problem down the road after changing tuning software, I'm absolutely sure everyone will try to blame the other guy. I have no interest in that "game".

I'm open to trying other tuning techs however I just can't find anyone with real experience on the latest Harley race tuner software.
I DEFINITELY understand about the difficulty finding a reputable tuner. I'm leaving out in the morning and I'm traveling 7hrs away to get mine tuned. The SEST is more than enough to tune your bike and it is a very good "tool" in the right hands.
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2007 UltraClassic\103"BB\manual CR's\.030 Cometic Head Gasket\SE 255's
Doherty PowerPACC w/vents\D&D FatCat 2:1\SERT\Bagger Brace
M1 15W-50 in crank\ATF in Primary\Redline Shockproof in Tranny
87HP & 115TQ($600 build!)
My Other Hobby and Money Pit
Original Sig Pic
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  #7  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:02 PM
eddfive eddfive is offline
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Rob's Dyno Service
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  #8  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:53 PM
Dalton Dalton is offline
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Some may disagree, but if you did not bump up your CR, the 408 was the wrong cam to go with. You talk about low end performance, all you have to do is look at your torque curve, it peaks at 4000 rpm and you are not breaking the 100tq until 3000 rpm. You would have been better off with the 7H or 400-6. A good tune may move some the torque curve to the left a bit, but I wouldn't bet on it ever perfoming in the lower rpm like you would expect it too.
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  #9  
Old 10-18-2009, 06:00 PM
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ryanl ryanl is offline
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Your pipe setup isnt doing you any favors down low either...
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  #10  
Old 10-18-2009, 08:18 PM
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Harleypingman Harleypingman is offline
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Bizarre thread. OP posts three dyno sheets showing WOT runs, but really wants to deal with parking lot throttle reponse problems; i.e. rideability, not WOT runs.

Obviously, the techs didn't know what they're doing with the dyno.

Until they get trained, I'd consider an SEST base map for an HD high output 110 or 113" until you can find a better tuner.

What kind of gas mileage are you getting? What do the plugs look like?

Good luck with your search for a solution.
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Last edited by Harleypingman; 10-18-2009 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:18 PM
 
 
 
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110, 2010, build, end, engine, fuelmoto, fullsac, harley, hd, lower, motor, performance, race, se, tuners


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