Just a couple things for your consideration:

The TTS was much easier to install and setup that the PCV for me and neighbor. Its very easy, no need to understand tuning, but you do need a laptop to get full use. If you really want to get into tuning you may,and that's where it gets complicated but most of us just run VTune to establish the VEs and then ride with smiles. Takes maybe an hour or two, less time than installing and setting up a PCV in a Dyna.

If you use the stock file name for your revised map, there is no easy way for anyone to tell if the bike is or is not EPA compliant, or for the dealer to detect its been modified. Certainly not as obvious as an add on module.

In theory, HD set up the ECU to be EPA compliant. Adding pipes and A/F upsets the settings. Tuning your VEs with the TTS will put the bike back into EPA compliance. Now most of us also tweak the A/F and timing to get better performance and a cooler running motor, which puts it out of compliance again.

PCVs cannot be EPA compliant because they disable the O2 sensors.

TTS is a better tool than the SEST for less money. They both operate on the same principle, but you have less restrictions with TTS. I think SEST has some built in restrictions primarily to appease the EPA gods, but I dunno.

So with a TTS you can choose to be environmentally correct or have max power or anywhere in between. You can have a street EPA tune and a track performance tune just by switching maps, a 5 minute exercise.

Just saying...

 

I'm willing to bet if you could see what the download does that the only thing changing is the VE tables. Anything else and the dealer would be making the bike non-EPA compliant. I think this is kind of a "Dirty Little Secret".

So you take the bike to the dealer with a AN Big Sucker, and Rush slipons. He does the download for the Heavy Breather and SE slipons. Kind of a extreme example, but I think this is what you are getting at. It's a simular configuration based on HD parts, but not the same.

Do you mean when tuning w/the SERT or TTS, or are you talking about some factory calibration of the VCI?

I want to draw a distinction between the download, Smart Tune, and a Dyno Performance tune. I've already described what I think about the Download, Take the above example, Big Sucker and Rush mufflers. The download adjusts the VE tables to something close based on HD parts, but not the same. The dealer can sell you a SESTP VCI and some Dyno time, He does the Smart Tune and the VE tables are synched to your specific config. The dealer has not changed EPA compliance since the AFR, timing, etc. haven't been changed. Still not a performance Tune. But I'll bet this what is going on at a lot of dealers.

Now I would think that a performance tune would begin by correctly synching the VE tables, w/Smart Tune or VTune. Once this is completed you have a correct base line for the ECM to base calculations on what has to be done to acheive the desired AFR. I think 14.6 is what the EPA wants because it provides the most complete combustion of the fuel but I think the 13.5 provides the most power w/non-EPA compliance. However since this range becomes Open Loop then having the VE tables synched would be very important.

I'm not following you on this original tune thing of 13.5. If I have a cell set at 14.1, this is out of the closed loop range, so how can the adaptive fuel table get feedback to adjust this particular cell?

 

[There isn't just one AFR in a calibration. Look at the document that I have embedded below as an example. AFR can be different for different load values and there is a possibility that the download has something different based on the configuration and is still legal. Bottom line is that the common person can not get access to the download calibration

I mentioned tuning the SERT/TTS being tuned in that paragraph and that is all I was referring to.


I was trying to address that the AFR is set across the board when tuning the SERT or TTS (on a dyno, not a self tune) to a known value taking it out of closed loop when it is being dyno tuned. The known AFR that is trying to be reached (for this example) is 13.5 - so you would set the entire afr chart to 13.5 and then measure it with the sniffers and adjust ve accordingly to reach the desired AFR. Once this is set, then you can set the AFR table back to closed loop (14.6) and it knows how to calculate it. You can't use 14.6 because that uses the feedback from the o2 sensors which would continually try to adjust while you were tuning, so you find another value and tune to that spec - then set the AFR to the desired afr - 14.6 for closed loop and whatever you want for ranges that you dont want to run in closed loop such as wot.

This has nothing to do with adaptive fuel. Adaptive fuel is simply another table that is used by the SERT/TTS to help average out a VE variance AFTER the tune is made which is added or subtracted to the VE values stored in the VE tables when the AFR is corrected so that when the value is needed in the future it will be closer to what is necessary.


Finally I used 14.1 in my last post and that should have read 14.6 for closed loop.

 

Here is a data log. You can see the VE values represented by VE Front and VE Rear. These are what is programmed in with a tune. If you notice VE New Front and VE New Rear this is what was required to get to the AFR Desired Ratio. The variance between those two will be averaged over time for that particular throttle position and rpm range and stored in another table (adaptive fuel). The next time that is tp and rpm is requested from the ECM, it will apply that to the original VE value to try and be accurate without having to perform additional adjustments.

There is way more going on in these calculations to go into here and I am not an expert. You do need to understand this concept so that when you talk about how the ecm can self adjust you know what you are talking about. The variance that can be calculated has a limit and many calculations from the sensors are used to determine how to get to a particular AFR.

If you also study this you will see that the afr for a particular tp/rpm range is not always what is set in the tuning table - this is due to some tp positions not having a correlating cell value. The calculations for this vary and are also controlled by the software - which in this case is SERT.

 

I do understand that we are talking about a matrix comprised of AFR at specific RPM/MAP points and not a single AFR value that covers all ranges. I will still bet that all you are getting w/the download is synching the VE tables to a known configuration of HD parts. However as you say there is no way to know for sure unlesss a TTS was used to download the map for comparison after after a download was performed.

I think ColdCase is correct when he says; "In theory, HD set up the ECU to be EPA compliant. Adding pipes and A/F upsets the settings. Tuning your VEs with the TTS will put the bike back into EPA compliance. Now most of us also tweak the A/F and timing to get better performance and a cooler running motor, which puts it out of compliance again."

I have never tuned my device, if this is something I should do where do I find this procedure?

Ok, the light came on. So you set the entire matix to 13.5 (optimal for power), then use an exhaust sniffer to adjust the VE tables to achieve the desired 13.5. Once this is accomplished set the AFR back to 14.6 and the ECM in closed loop makes the adjustments to get the desired 13.5.

It makes sense, but it's counterintuitive to me. I would think that you would synch the VE tables first, then if you put 13.5 in the cells for AFR then that is pretty close to what you should get. Use the Dyno and sniffers to make the finer adjustments, and run in open loop.

Ok, I want be more specific about language. All the tables we are talking about are in the memory of the ECM. The SERT (SESTP) and TTS are tools for modifying these tables only.

I appreciate this discussion, we kind of got off to a bad start the last time.

 

I do not understand the question. If this is based on my comments about tuning it would be tuning it using SERT software in combination with a dyno. If you have a SERT, you should have received a disk.

You are correct in your first paragraph. But think about this in regards to your second paragraph - you have synched the VE tables to a known AFR. The ECM is programmed to figure out the rest because it is simple math. If you PM me your email address I will send you a spreadsheet that you can see how it works.

But basically New VE = Initial VE Value * Observed AFR / Desired AFR

All of the tables end up residing in the ECM. You have visibility to a small portion of them (I think there are 13, 14) in the SERT and a few more in the TTS version. The adaptive fuel table is dynamically created, maintained and is stored in the ECM. In the old days, you had to use the digital tech to clear it before tuning or it could skew results when tuning with the dyno. I understand the new TTS wipes it out on every upload of a new calibration.

 

So after all of your input I called Cycle visions in San Diego they told me they would much rather work with a Powercommander not sure if it is because they are listed on there site or not.... but most likely

I then ordered the PC V and should be in soon. found it on motorcycle superstore on sale for 295.99 free shipping no tax... so pretty good deal...

Thank you guys for all of your help and input and dont think I wont ask it of you again!! thanks guys i appreciate it! Once I get back from the East coast I will put it all together and post some pic's should be a little bit different from all of the other wideglides but not by much...next is new forward controls seat and apes... I'm 6'3" so its a little small for me right now gotta stretch out!

 

I was being very specific wih the language. So we are talking about using SESTP to make adjustment to the ECM. We do no calibrations to the actual SESTP or TTS. I have the software.

There is an Excel spreadsheet included w/the SESTP that utilizes this formula and acomplishes this.

I'm sorry, but I have to be somewhat specific about the language I use. I apologise if I am coming off as being "nit pickey". The tables reside in the ECM, the SESTP or TTS are merely tools to manipulate them. IF the TTS shows more tables it is becuase it has access to memory areas that the SESTP doesn't provide.

The SESTP has a box to check when you flash the ECM that resets the adaptive fuel table.

 

Jluvs2ride,
I think it boils down to this in the ECM regardless of how it is flashed (I am not talking about piggy backs like a PC):
There are lots of tables, some are exposed to you given a particular tuning device. The basics of how it adapts are probably very similar given that it gets feedback from an o2 sensor. I would imagine that every device has an adaptive fuel table algorithm because the goal is to make it right the first time so it doesn't have to adapt. You have to tune the VE and timing because the programming inside the ECM isn't capable of managing it with the sensors as designed today. Tools like the TTS help because you can ride it, record it and update your ranges back into the calibration file (map) and do it all over again - however note that this same programming could theoretically be used inside the ECM but for whatever reason (perhaps processor or memory limitations) it is not - which is why you have to record, update and reflash.

Now take this concept above - the ecm adapts and then you put on something like a PC with 02 eliminators. It tricks the ECM to always thinking it is reaching a perfect scenario and no adapting is necessary. The PC is then tuned (add or subtract to the VE given by the ECM) to the desired AFR but nothing ever adapts inside the ECM again. So when one takes it off the bike and removes the o2 eliminators the adaptive fuel kicks back in and the ecm tries to adapt and in some instances will not be able to because what is necessary to reach a particular AFR is not obtainable by the internal algorithm. This is why I never recommend anyone to just remove a tuned Power Commander and O2 sensors and start just riding around. The eliminators were inserted, the ECM was fooled, the bike was tuned and the updates stored in the Power Commander. Once it is removed it is so far away from being what is necessary that it could potentially cause more issues than what it is worth to just wait a day or two.

Now, I want to preface all of the above information in all of my posts with this - I am not a tuning expert nor am I a tuner. I have spoken with some very reputable tuners and I have toyed with both the PC and the SERT device for several years. There are tons of concepts about tuning I do not understand, but I absolutely understand math and the concepts I have described to you. I may have a minor misplaced fact here or there, but overall I am confident that what I have described is this works at a high level.

 

TickTock, that does make perfect sense. However we have paper thin mp3 players that have gobs of memory and I'm sure the processor in those things is capable of handling the calculations necessary for real-time calibration. Just a thought.