My experience installing the SE 25284-11 cam kit
#11
03-17-2014, 03:36 PM
Road Warrior
Hi,
Yes got manual, i will read more thoroughly
Changing inner cam bearings is an interesting one, theres a lot of anti-harley discussion around about the bearings and not sure if just a wife's tale, the bearing tool landex in Aus is around $200 but in the scheme of things not much when a shop charges about $1500 for job
Thanks
Mirrmu
Yes got manual, i will read more thoroughly
Changing inner cam bearings is an interesting one, theres a lot of anti-harley discussion around about the bearings and not sure if just a wife's tale, the bearing tool landex in Aus is around $200 but in the scheme of things not much when a shop charges about $1500 for job
Thanks
Mirrmu
#12
03-19-2014, 05:16 AM
I just did a cam install, which is basically what the OP did even though it sounds like he re-used his cam. I would strongly recommend getting a low priced set of bolt cutters from Harbor Freight and cut those pushrods out rather than tearing into the top end to get the original rods out. Although its more expensive to buy new adjustable pushrods, its not that much more when you throw in the extra gaskets and especially the extra time and trouble. Also if you drop or dent the tank, you will really be money behind. I used the Screamin Eagle EZ install pushrods which worked great and if you get them from one of the 20% off dealers (Kutters HD, cough cough) they are much cheaper than S&S or Andrews EZ rods. They come with the new tubes that are necessary along with all the o-ring seals.
As to the inner bearings, I would also strongly urge people to use one of the myriad puller/installer tools that are out there. Mine was $105 off Ebay and worked great. It uses a plate that mounts to the case, with a large cutout to see what you are doing, for the install. Driving the bearings in with a cam or bearing driver could cause the bearing to be slightly cocked, too deep or not deep enough in the case. All these are bad. Although the tool does cost money, it could save you a whole lot if you screw up. Some people resell or rent them to other people on the forum after they are done with their install to recoup money. I'm a tool ***** so I keep all tools I buy, even if I probably will never use it again.
Harley and other companies sell a nice horseshoe shaped tool with magnets that is used for holding up the lifters if you are not changing them. Much better than the wire clips that manual shows. If changing cams I also strongly encourage new lifters since the old ones may not hold up long with a higher lift cam. Again its more money but Gaterman sells their lifters at a great price (less than $150) and are one of the best ones out there. Way better than H-D. Also the cam gear locking tool is usually pretty cheap and really makes it easier to remove and install the bots. It also helps a lot when you have to remove and replace the gears several times while setting the clearances with the cam gear spacers.
Don't forget new exhaust gaskets (I use the Screamin Eagle ones). Another thing you should do when doing the cam the first time is replace the bypass spring with a heavier one. I used a Baisley spring, which is 15% stronger, or some use the Axtell set up. Either way do the spring so you have better oil pressure. It will help keep the valve train quieter along with better piston cooling. Don't forget the new oil pump o-ring also, its a must do or it will allow oil to leak past, fill up the sump and cause oil foaming and a lot of drag on the flywheel with lost power.
As to the inner bearings, I would also strongly urge people to use one of the myriad puller/installer tools that are out there. Mine was $105 off Ebay and worked great. It uses a plate that mounts to the case, with a large cutout to see what you are doing, for the install. Driving the bearings in with a cam or bearing driver could cause the bearing to be slightly cocked, too deep or not deep enough in the case. All these are bad. Although the tool does cost money, it could save you a whole lot if you screw up. Some people resell or rent them to other people on the forum after they are done with their install to recoup money. I'm a tool ***** so I keep all tools I buy, even if I probably will never use it again.
Harley and other companies sell a nice horseshoe shaped tool with magnets that is used for holding up the lifters if you are not changing them. Much better than the wire clips that manual shows. If changing cams I also strongly encourage new lifters since the old ones may not hold up long with a higher lift cam. Again its more money but Gaterman sells their lifters at a great price (less than $150) and are one of the best ones out there. Way better than H-D. Also the cam gear locking tool is usually pretty cheap and really makes it easier to remove and install the bots. It also helps a lot when you have to remove and replace the gears several times while setting the clearances with the cam gear spacers.
Don't forget new exhaust gaskets (I use the Screamin Eagle ones). Another thing you should do when doing the cam the first time is replace the bypass spring with a heavier one. I used a Baisley spring, which is 15% stronger, or some use the Axtell set up. Either way do the spring so you have better oil pressure. It will help keep the valve train quieter along with better piston cooling. Don't forget the new oil pump o-ring also, its a must do or it will allow oil to leak past, fill up the sump and cause oil foaming and a lot of drag on the flywheel with lost power.
#13
03-19-2014, 09:24 AM
It's really easy for others to spend someone else's money freely. As long as one has the service manual, a decent set of hand tools and common sense, there is almost always a work around to buying expensive tools that will only be used once. At the end of the day, if the work is done correctly, the tool one uses to do the work doesn't matter.
#14
03-19-2014, 04:56 PM
It's really easy for others to spend someone else's money freely. As long as one has the service manual, a decent set of hand tools and common sense, there is almost always a work around to buying expensive tools that will only be used once. At the end of the day, if the work is done correctly, the tool one uses to do the work doesn't matter.
On the Touring forum a few people have posted photos of what happened when they re-used lifters that appeared to be in good shape. In one the rollers started wearing and caused excessive wear on the new cams. That was enough to convince me to change lifters, even though I originally planned to re-use lifters and pushrods on my cam change. Years ago my brother had a lifter roller bearings let go and it ended up destroying his entire motor once the metal went through the whole engine. Cost him over $4000 to fix his built motor. Adjustable pushrods are not must haves but they sure make things easier all around.
#15
03-20-2014, 12:00 AM
#16
03-20-2014, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Guntoter
I am one of those that does not have much money, in fact it takes a lot of saving or overtime to buy much for my bike (I sold a gun to mostly finance my recent cam change). I, also, have made or rigged tools to work to get jobs done many times in the past so I know what you are saying. That can be done too, but after damaging a few expensive things over the years using the wrong tool or wrong method I have tried to learn from mine or others mistakes.
Originally Posted by Guntoter
On the Touring forum a few people have posted photos of what happened when they re-used lifters that appeared to be in good shape. In one the rollers started wearing and caused excessive wear on the new cams. That was enough to convince me to change lifters, even though I originally planned to re-use lifters and pushrods on my cam change. Years ago my brother had a lifter roller bearings let go and it ended up destroying his entire motor once the metal went through the whole engine. Cost him over $4000 to fix his built motor. Adjustable pushrods are not must haves but they sure make things easier all around.
#17
03-20-2014, 03:18 PM
A cam change, assuming you have a service manual, all the parts, tools, etc. and Murphy doesn't hang around your garage and this is a first time DIY cam change, you should be able to get it done in 8 hours. After you have done a couple, that could be cut down to 4. Adjustable pushrods will save an hour but add to the cost.
#18
06-24-2017, 12:01 AM
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Welder
To all those thinking about replacing your 1999-2006 Twin Cam (TC) spring cam chain tensioners with the SE hydraulic tensioner kit #25284-11. I just completed this install and I thought I'd pass on what I discovered. To do this mod you REALLY need the HD service manual for your bike.
First, I decided to keep my stock push rods and so had to remove the seat, tank, rocker covers and rocker supports. When I did my research I noticed HD required 3 other kit purchases in addition to the 25284-11. Do we need them? Here's what I found.
#1: Spacer kit 25285-08. Yes for most of us. If you have an 1999-2000 TC Dyna, Touring or Softail you have to re-use your outside chain and sprockets (and spacer) and so do not need the spacer kit. With my 2006 Ultra I needed this kit and ended up using the second largest spacer.
#2: Drive gear retention kit 25533-99A. For me, no. All this kit is, are the two bolts that hold the 2 sprockets on the crank and outside, rear cam. Also two washers for same. Why we can't re-use the original bolts and washers is never explained. Well, for some reason when I received the 25284-11 from Keller HD online (best price) it came with these two bolts. I compared them to my originals and they were both exactly the same. I used the new ones. If someone knows more about this let us all know.
3#: Cam Service Kit 17045-99D. Yes, I needed this ESPECIALLY since I was digging into the rocker cover and all. This kit includes a lot of stuff, including gaskets (rocker covers and cam chest cover), exhaust seals, MANY o-rings, roller bearing for rear cam, ball bearing for front cam, and breather filters. It also comes with 2 HD caged inner cam bearings but I did not use them. Like most that do this mod, I bought upgraded inner bearings without the cage. I bought 2 Koyo B148's on Ebay. (Koyo used to be Torrington, before that Timkin)
Ok, now we have all the components. Here are the things I learned. This job is much easier if you remove the exhaust, all 4 floorboards and lower fairings. Remove seat, no problem.
The trick with removing the gas tank is remove as much of the gas ahead of time as possible! When you remove the crossover hose from the bottom, left side, you will have gas coming out from both places so you have to prepare to catch it. (This is where you read the HD service manual.)
Removing the rocker covers is ok, the rear one is tight. The real **tch is the rear rocker support. First, for each cyl you place the piston at TDC on the compression stroke (Both pushrods are at their lowest). I searched and found other posts on this (and other) message boards. You basically get down to 2 left mount bolts and one breather bolt that seem impossible to remove on the rear rockers. Believe it or not one guy here suggested to use a 2x4 and "gently" push down on the rear cyl top. Just a 1/4 inch is all it takes and you can slip that rear rocker out! You are going to need that 2x4 when you put that piece back in. Push rods out, mark them so you put them back in the same place!
Down at the cam chest, the cover comes off easy. HD recommends a little tool to bind up the 2 cam sprockets so you can loosen the bolts. Instead, the trick here is to place the tranny in gear (5th is best) and you can loosen both bolts. Before you pull off the cam plate you have to do something to keep the lifters from falling into the cam area. The HD manual suggests something that just did not work for me. They say to get a office paper binder and remove the springs and use these to clip into the top of the lifters. I could not figure out what they were supposed to clip into. So of course when I removed the plate the lifters fell anyway! I ended up taking the lifter covers off and removed the lifters. (The gaskets for these come with 17045 too). Mark the lifters so they go back in the same place!
Ok, now we come to removing the inner bearings and replacing. If you have an AutoZone near you they have a cool tool rental deal where you "buy" the "hidden bearing" removal tool and if you return it in pristine shape they give you your money back. It worked for me, good deal. You place this tool carefully into the old bearings, tighten the tool and then use the slide hammer to remove them. Now, another special HD tool is supposed to be used, the inner bearing installer. Ok, at this point shop mechanics will screech but I did it a "different" way! I (carefully) used the rear cam itself as a tool. I placed the new bearing on the end and sighted it straight. I used a hard rubber hammer to protect the outer end and slowly tapped both bearings in. Done! Now I've been working on my own stuff a long time and know how to go slowly and carefully doing something like this. Do so at your own risk.
Ok, now the outer bearings. I have a friend with a hyd press and he helped me press both the roller and ball bearings into their respective holes in the cam plate. Now the inner chain goes on; timing marks lined up and we pressed the front cam into the front bearing. The rear cam just slides into it's bearing at the same time. Inner new cam tensioner on. Double check the timing! As you assemble don't forget all the o-rings, especially the one on the suction of the oil pump. After the cam plate is back on, you put the sprockets and chain on (TIMING!) and tighten the bolts with the tranny in gear. Outer new cam tensioner on. Cam chest cover.
Lifters in, lifter covers, push rod tubes (o-rings!), push rods in, 2 o-rings under each rocker support, supports, breathers, bolts (use the 2x4!), gaskets, covers. Gas tank on.
At this point I wanted to make sure it would run before I put anything else on (cam timing? or whatever). I put just one gallon of gas in and crossed my fingers. Hearing muffs on because of no exhaust! I cranked and it started! Ran it just 15 seconds, I could tell the timing was right, ie, revs good and it idled correctly. I hope this post will help anybody contemplating doing the infamous cam chain tensioner replacement!
First, I decided to keep my stock push rods and so had to remove the seat, tank, rocker covers and rocker supports. When I did my research I noticed HD required 3 other kit purchases in addition to the 25284-11. Do we need them? Here's what I found.
#1: Spacer kit 25285-08. Yes for most of us. If you have an 1999-2000 TC Dyna, Touring or Softail you have to re-use your outside chain and sprockets (and spacer) and so do not need the spacer kit. With my 2006 Ultra I needed this kit and ended up using the second largest spacer.
#2: Drive gear retention kit 25533-99A. For me, no. All this kit is, are the two bolts that hold the 2 sprockets on the crank and outside, rear cam. Also two washers for same. Why we can't re-use the original bolts and washers is never explained. Well, for some reason when I received the 25284-11 from Keller HD online (best price) it came with these two bolts. I compared them to my originals and they were both exactly the same. I used the new ones. If someone knows more about this let us all know.
3#: Cam Service Kit 17045-99D. Yes, I needed this ESPECIALLY since I was digging into the rocker cover and all. This kit includes a lot of stuff, including gaskets (rocker covers and cam chest cover), exhaust seals, MANY o-rings, roller bearing for rear cam, ball bearing for front cam, and breather filters. It also comes with 2 HD caged inner cam bearings but I did not use them. Like most that do this mod, I bought upgraded inner bearings without the cage. I bought 2 Koyo B148's on Ebay. (Koyo used to be Torrington, before that Timkin)
Ok, now we have all the components. Here are the things I learned. This job is much easier if you remove the exhaust, all 4 floorboards and lower fairings. Remove seat, no problem.
The trick with removing the gas tank is remove as much of the gas ahead of time as possible! When you remove the crossover hose from the bottom, left side, you will have gas coming out from both places so you have to prepare to catch it. (This is where you read the HD service manual.)
Removing the rocker covers is ok, the rear one is tight. The real **tch is the rear rocker support. First, for each cyl you place the piston at TDC on the compression stroke (Both pushrods are at their lowest). I searched and found other posts on this (and other) message boards. You basically get down to 2 left mount bolts and one breather bolt that seem impossible to remove on the rear rockers. Believe it or not one guy here suggested to use a 2x4 and "gently" push down on the rear cyl top. Just a 1/4 inch is all it takes and you can slip that rear rocker out! You are going to need that 2x4 when you put that piece back in. Push rods out, mark them so you put them back in the same place!
Down at the cam chest, the cover comes off easy. HD recommends a little tool to bind up the 2 cam sprockets so you can loosen the bolts. Instead, the trick here is to place the tranny in gear (5th is best) and you can loosen both bolts. Before you pull off the cam plate you have to do something to keep the lifters from falling into the cam area. The HD manual suggests something that just did not work for me. They say to get a office paper binder and remove the springs and use these to clip into the top of the lifters. I could not figure out what they were supposed to clip into. So of course when I removed the plate the lifters fell anyway! I ended up taking the lifter covers off and removed the lifters. (The gaskets for these come with 17045 too). Mark the lifters so they go back in the same place!
Ok, now we come to removing the inner bearings and replacing. If you have an AutoZone near you they have a cool tool rental deal where you "buy" the "hidden bearing" removal tool and if you return it in pristine shape they give you your money back. It worked for me, good deal. You place this tool carefully into the old bearings, tighten the tool and then use the slide hammer to remove them. Now, another special HD tool is supposed to be used, the inner bearing installer. Ok, at this point shop mechanics will screech but I did it a "different" way! I (carefully) used the rear cam itself as a tool. I placed the new bearing on the end and sighted it straight. I used a hard rubber hammer to protect the outer end and slowly tapped both bearings in. Done! Now I've been working on my own stuff a long time and know how to go slowly and carefully doing something like this. Do so at your own risk.
Ok, now the outer bearings. I have a friend with a hyd press and he helped me press both the roller and ball bearings into their respective holes in the cam plate. Now the inner chain goes on; timing marks lined up and we pressed the front cam into the front bearing. The rear cam just slides into it's bearing at the same time. Inner new cam tensioner on. Double check the timing! As you assemble don't forget all the o-rings, especially the one on the suction of the oil pump. After the cam plate is back on, you put the sprockets and chain on (TIMING!) and tighten the bolts with the tranny in gear. Outer new cam tensioner on. Cam chest cover.
Lifters in, lifter covers, push rod tubes (o-rings!), push rods in, 2 o-rings under each rocker support, supports, breathers, bolts (use the 2x4!), gaskets, covers. Gas tank on.
At this point I wanted to make sure it would run before I put anything else on (cam timing? or whatever). I put just one gallon of gas in and crossed my fingers. Hearing muffs on because of no exhaust! I cranked and it started! Ran it just 15 seconds, I could tell the timing was right, ie, revs good and it idled correctly. I hope this post will help anybody contemplating doing the infamous cam chain tensioner replacement!
Just so if anybody else reads this they don't take a 2x4 and press down on their motor.. just remove entire assembly in one shot.. hope this can help somebody else out..
#19
06-24-2017, 07:29 AM
PeaNuts, thanks for adding to this thread! It's been a few years since I did this so I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're saying. I'll pull my manual out and take a look.
I've put on ~30,000 miles since this install, engine running fine at 70,000 miles. Big plus I noticed since, the higher oil pressure in all rpm's.
I've put on ~30,000 miles since this install, engine running fine at 70,000 miles. Big plus I noticed since, the higher oil pressure in all rpm's.
#20
06-24-2017, 01:29 PM
You did not need a 2x4 to get the rear breather bolt out on left side.. just loosen both breather bolts and rocker assembly bolts and slide out as a unit..
Just so if anybody else reads this they don't take a 2x4 and press down on their motor.. just remove entire assembly in one shot.. hope this can help somebody else out..
Just so if anybody else reads this they don't take a 2x4 and press down on their motor.. just remove entire assembly in one shot.. hope this can help somebody else out..
Best to replace the breather assemblies with the later stamped piece; shorter bolts and they will come right out.
Last edited by djl; 06-25-2017 at 03:23 PM.