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S&S Evo 96" max torque?

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  #11  
Old 03-10-2024, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by McGurk

Titan/Supertrapp Megaphone 2into1
S&S. 561 cam
Super E
I found this >
The S&S is different from the CV carbs, a CV covers your errors in throttle useage, an S&S does not, it is borderline too large for a stock 80", the cv is 38mm, the s&s is near 47mm it flows considerably more air, it requires a little finesse until you get it up to around 3500 rpm's. More so in the higher gears. It will out perform the CV carbed bikes every time.
I don't know where you got your information about the S&S E carb but it's a 40 mm tapered Venturi carburetor and they flow extremely well.. A Little more velocity than CV.. Also when jetted properly to the motor they have extremely good lower rpm manners..
As for power in that stock S&S motor, you might be looking at 100 lb of torque and about 95 horsepower, that's it.. and ditch the stupid hypercharger, You're only kidding yourself..
 

Last edited by 98hotrodfatboy; 03-10-2024 at 07:46 AM.
  #12  
Old 03-10-2024, 08:50 AM
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I’d like to comment on OP’s frame of mind.. For most of the 90’s and early 2000’s I spoke out against the masses trying to educate that they needed to build the highest average torque they could.. at that time almost everyone wanted drag racing parts because that’s what was out there.. those parts often were too radicle for street and folks didn’t understand how to use their power band. (93” shovel 115ft lbs of torque 105hp 11.87 @112mph with 130 street tire, no shift assistance). Problem is now.. everyone is so over educated reading and listening to dyno sheets in magazines selling parts and darling shops..selling their brand that they are over compensating making bikes that want to pull tree stumps but fall flat on the quarter mile..

Let’s aim for balance. Upper rpm focused builds will blow away high torque low rpm concentrated builds. I’ve seen some of these dyno queens with massive power at 2500 rpm lose embarrassingly to smaller bikes making less but focusing their power higher and learning how to use… IDK GEARS and shift points.

I think.. you think, you know what your asking.. But I don’t think you know what you’re asking. I’d rephrase your thinking.. torque wins races when there is thought to your power band and the hp has to be there.

To illustrate (don’t care shovel vs EVo they make the same power up to when aftermarket sizes take over at above 103”) I only ran three gears through the quarter.. why? Because I averaged above 100 ft lbs and stayed above 100 ft lbs between 2700-5000 pm nice high flat impressive torque.. but When I only used 3 gears I was faster than using 4… I’d hold in each gear a lot longer.. past what many would consider peak shift point, in a race I was never under 4000rpm.. ever. Now that’s an example that substantiates high torque.. but look where I needed it.. 4000-6500.

What does this mean.. So you buy/build this torque motor that pulls tree stumps at 2500 rpm.. And the guy next to you built one that comes in at 3500, peaks at 5800 and he stays in gear till 6500… he’s gonna wipe the road with you 7 ways to Sunday.

Be balanced. Chose a motor recipe where you use it.. too many claim that’s at 2500 cause they want to pass amish buggy’s and Mennonites on their full dressers with their fat wives on the back. And I love they pull out their piece of paper that says they make all this power down low. Then they meet somebody that’s serious about racing and find out that their money was foolishly spent.

Durations low like 240’s are just not good racing engineering. High 250’s-270’s, high lifts make race power, compression needs to compensate for the lose with high duration.

‘’Another trick, don’t be fooled by conservative lifts. If your head stops flowing past 550, don’t pick up Cam the peaks at 550. You want a cam that lifts way passed that. Think like this.. your flowing up to TDC and then the other side coming down from TDC.. 450, 500, 525, (550 TDC), 525, 500, 450… or 450, 500, 525, 550 BTDC, 550BTDC, 550TDC, 550ATDC, 550 ATDC, 525, 500, 450.. get the idea? Maybe your head stoped increasing flo, but your keeping it at peak way longer as rotation of the crank in relation to valve timing.
 

Last edited by Rains2much; 03-10-2024 at 09:07 AM.
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  #13  
Old 03-10-2024, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rains2much
I’d like to comment on OP’s frame of mind.. For most of the 90’s and early 2000’s I spoke out against the masses trying to educate that they needed to build the highest average torque they could.. at that time almost everyone wanted drag racing parts because that’s what was out there.. those parts often were too radicle for street and folks didn’t understand how to use their power band. (93” shovel 115ft lbs of torque 105hp 11.87 @112mph with 130 street tire, no shift assistance). Problem is now.. everyone is so over educated reading and listening to dyno sheets in magazines selling parts and darling shops..selling their brand that they are over compensating making bikes that want to pull tree stumps but fall flat on the quarter mile..

Let’s aim for balance. Upper rpm focused builds will blow away high torque low rpm concentrated builds. I’ve seen some of these dyno queens with massive power at 2500 rpm lose embarrassingly to smaller bikes making less but focusing their power higher and learning how to use… IDK GEARS and shift points.

I think.. you think, you know what your asking.. But I don’t think you know what you’re asking. I’d rephrase your thinking.. torque wins races when there is thought to your power band and the hp has to be there.

To illustrate (don’t care shovel vs EVo they make the same power up to when aftermarket sizes take over at above 103”) I only ran three gears through the quarter.. why? Because I averaged above 100 ft lbs and stayed above 100 ft lbs between 2700-5000 pm nice high flat impressive torque.. but When I only used 3 gears I was faster than using 4… I’d hold in each gear a lot longer.. past what many would consider peak shift point, in a race I was never under 4000rpm.. ever. Now that’s an example that substantiates high torque.. but look where I needed it.. 4000-6500.

What does this mean.. So you buy/build this torque motor that pulls tree stumps at 2500 rpm.. And the guy next to you built one that comes in at 3500, peaks at 5800 and he stays in gear till 6500… he’s gonna wipe the road with you 7 ways to Sunday.

Be balanced. Chose a motor recipe where you use it.. too many claim that’s at 2500 cause they want to pass amish buggy’s and Mennonites on their full dressers with their fat wives on the back. And I love they pull out their piece of paper that says they make all this power down low. Then they meet somebody that’s serious about racing and find out that their money was foolishly spent.

Durations low like 240’s are just not good racing engineering. High 250’s-270’s, high lifts make race power, compression needs to compensate for the lose with high duration.

‘’Another trick, don’t be fooled by conservative lifts. If your head stops flowing past 550, don’t pick up Cam the peaks at 550. You want a cam that lifts way passed that. Think like this.. your flowing up to TDC and then the other side coming down from TDC.. 450, 500, 525, (550 TDC), 525, 500, 450… or 450, 500, 525, 550 BTDC, 550BTDC, 550TDC, 550ATDC, 550 ATDC, 525, 500, 450.. get the idea? Maybe your head stoped increasing flo, but your keeping it at peak way longer as rotation of the crank in relation to valve timing.
The following info is on my 2013 Dyna in my sig below..
There is a lot of truth what @johnjzjz and @Rains2much have both discussed and I notice it more in fourth gear in the time it takes to get up to 5,800 RPM, my shift point.. First, second and third are nice.. They work very well and I'm usually up to 88 mph in third gear within 7.3 seconds but fourth gear is a different story because when I shift at 5800 RPM it drops down to 4800 RPM and I'm out of my torque range.. I'm in my horsepower range and with the setup I have down in my sig 4th gear is a little bit of struggle.. It'll literally takes another four seconds to get through fourth gear which is more than half the time of first second and third.. I have stated many times that it seems like I run out of power at about 127 mph and it's only because the current build I have is more about torque than horsepower and that's why I'm going to a different set of heads and a different camshaft.. I'm going to increase my range..
 
  #14  
Old 03-10-2024, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 98hotrodfatboy
The following info is on my 2013 Dyna in my sig below..
There is a lot of truth what @johnjzjz and @Rains2much have both discussed and I notice it more in fourth gear in the time it takes to get up to 5,800 RPM, my shift point.. First, second and third are nice.. They work very well and I'm usually up to 88 mph in third gear within 7.3 seconds but fourth gear is a different story because when I shift at 5800 RPM it drops down to 4800 RPM and I'm out of my torque range.. I'm in my horsepower range and with the setup I have down in my sig 4th gear is a little bit of struggle.. It'll literally takes another four seconds to get through fourth gear which is more than half the time of first second and third.. I have stated many times that it seems like I run out of power at about 127 mph and it's only because the current build I have is more about torque than horsepower and that's why I'm going to a different set of heads and a different camshaft.. I'm going to increase my range..
Not for everyone.. but you can also make your 1 to 1 gear like 2:80 final ratio. This does a number of things.. first you’ll stay in each gear longer but cover more distance. You’ll find you no longer need a 6 speed lol. Or even a 5 speed because your top gear is lower in rpm. Now when you cruise it’s like you have an overdrive with your 4 or 5 speed. For street use this slows you light to light.. but if you build enough power it won’t matter. The thing is by the time you make that much power with out a slick and only on a 130-150 street tire, you can’t keep traction anyway. So bleed it off by staying in each gear longer. When I ran hot street class, most guys would leave me before the eighth. But somewhere about the 8th I’d catch them.. then they’d shift twice more and drop a good wheels distance with each shift leaving me through the traps past them.

Because of traction loss my 60ft were better geared that way actually. I had some decent 1:54 60ft times.. it was super hard to get that.. and it made a big difference in my ET. I eventually went to a 5 speed.. only because I was broke and the parts basically were free. It hurt me. Even gear 47T out back it was too much gear in 1-3rd with the 5 speed in there. I had to go 46T.
 

Last edited by Rains2much; 03-10-2024 at 09:48 AM.
  #15  
Old 03-10-2024, 01:12 PM
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The biggest thing that @johnjzjz brought up is how fast it spools.. The one thing I would like to see on a dyno run is how much time did it take to get to 6000 rpm.. I think that would say a lot...
 

Last edited by 98hotrodfatboy; 03-10-2024 at 01:14 PM.
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  #16  
Old 03-10-2024, 01:36 PM
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The Hypercharger came on the bike from the Titan factory & I think it DOES increase the cold O2 concentration alot more than a teardrop.

Here's a list of my Roadrunner's motor makeup:
1999 Titan Roadrunner
STMBC1230XC000675

S&S Part Number Description Production Date
31-9041T 96" V2 TITAN LONG (OBS) | 96" V2 TITAN COMPLETE LONG BLOCK 03/09/1999
Components
Part Number Description
33-5076-S Camshaft, 561, 1984-'99 bt
11-0420EB Carb, Assembly, Super E, .0295/.072
0381-S Carb, Casting, Body, Super E, Burnished
11-0442 Carb, Kit, Super E, w/o Manifold & Mounting Hardware, 1993-'99 bt
31-0011Z CRANKCASE ASSEMBLY,3-5/8" BORE, ALT (CP SENSOR MACHINING)
BN4 Crankcase, 3-5/8" Bore, bt, Alternator, Machined, CPS Machining,
31-0155 Crankcase, Casting, Left, Permanent Mold, Alternator, 1970-'99
31-0156 Crankcase, Casting, Right, Permanent Mold, Alternator, 1970-'99
6SL Flywheel, Set, 4-5/8" Stroke, 8-1/2" Diameter,
90-1004F Head, Assembly, Front, 3-5/8" Bore, .640" Triple Steel,
90-1004R Head, Assembly, Rear, 3-5/8" Bore, .640" Triple Steel, Packaged,
90-1004 Head, Kit, 3-5/8" Bore, .640" Triple Steel, Natural, 1984-'99 bt


You guys are way past my knowledge of technical details on what makes a BT go fast. I do know the band is 3,000 - 5,500. The bike has a Bandit clutch and after it was tuned the difference is nothing short of incredible. The pull skyrocketed so much its like a completely different bike.
http://www.banditmachineworks.com/products.htm
 
  #17  
Old 03-10-2024, 02:33 PM
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Got this from a former TITAN factory employee:

The Titan/S&S engine is actually a 97” and not a 96” that was made for Titan. It was a destroked 100” for quicker revs.
 
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Old 03-10-2024, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 98hotrodfatboy
The biggest thing that @johnjzjz brought up is how fast it spools.. The one thing I would like to see on a dyno run is how much time did it take to get to 6000 rpm.. I think that would say a lot...
In my opinion for whatever that’s worth lol. There is a balance. You definitely can go to Light and you can definitely go too heavy. And how you balance the bottom can definitely affect the harmonic RPM range in vibration. George and Will Roader did all of my bottom end machine work.. When they balanced, they included the entire reciprocating mass. I’m talking crank, rods, pistons, and even clips or buttons. When I finally got around to building other peoples motors, I would use S&S. And I have to say that out of the box, they were usually just about perfect weight wise to start with. I generally ran 4 3/4 stroke on almost every build, except for my own 93.

There was a guy named Mike Meacham, he ran 82 inch big twins. The dude absolutely flew. He built absolutely stock wheels that he lightened and reved ridiculously high for a shovel… we’re talkin 7000+rpm. His bikes were stripped to super light. They were dedicated drag bikes though. No way you’d run that on the street with that super light bottom, just not enough inertia for street riding. He went too far but made it work in certain circumstances.

I built a few really light 88” shovels that I set up with as light as was possible lifter, valve, springs using the B grind. Man those bikes were awesome fun to run on the street. As long as you used bare minimum valve pressure light rockers, push rods and lifters. Keep the scraper minimum and lighten those 4 3/4 inch stroked 88’s were a blast to rev through the gears.
 

Last edited by Rains2much; 03-10-2024 at 04:59 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-10-2024, 04:02 PM
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Thanks R2M excellent point. The stupidly ridiculous 135ci motors that the MoCo is putting out today makes (0) no sense to me. A good builder can make a 97" S&S TC or even Evo just as powerful .
 

Last edited by McGurk; 03-10-2024 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 03-10-2024, 04:05 PM
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I'd love to build a bike myself using a 103" long stroke for the street.
 

Last edited by McGurk; 03-10-2024 at 04:15 PM.


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