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Originally Posted by jdunn01
(Post 16418362)
I am surprised hardly anyone mentioned downshifting to assist in emergency stopping situations. Coming from a MotoCross background it is one of the first things that i seem to do when i have to get on the binders. It does two things for you; 1) it helps slow the bike in addition to the brakes (to me it seems to set the bike down instead of the all the weight to the front end) 2) it keeps your engine in the power range to accelerated quickly to maneuver if possible out of the situation.
I had and example yesterday here in North Texas. Wife and i were going north up 289 to Potts borough and were crossing over 82. The exit from 82 to 289 is on the other side of the 289 overpass. I could see a pick up truck that was exiting 82 and turning left to go south onto 289. He did not look left and started out to make his turn. We were running the speed limit at 70 and in 6th gear. I immediately downshifted as i got on the brakes anticipating swerving left on to the shoulder to go behind him but the guy stopped right in the middle of my lane. If I had to depend on just stopping i would have hit him pretty hard. By downshifting i had the power to hit the gas and swerve around him the into the left hand turn lane (thankfully empty). We were so close at the time that being able to get back on the gas got me around the front of him in time (just barely). Now i do realize that there is a lot of luck in what happened as well as he could of panicked and started accelerating again. My Lesson learned was to slow down coming over overpasses and be ready for anything. Any way my initial point was include downshifting in your emergency braking practice. To use the engine as a brake, you have to downshift and let out the clutch repeatedly. In a true emergency when braking at maximum, (while trying to avoid a skid on non-ABS bikes), I just don't see how engine braking would have any effect. It could actually induce a skid if done too suddenly. The brakes have the power to lock up the wheels on their own, without any assistance needed from engine braking. Downshifting while hard braking is a good practice because you may suddenly need to accelerate to get out of a situation. Meaning if you brake hard down to 20mph and then want to evade, being in 6th gear isn't going to help. But in this case, I'm talking about downshifting while holding the clutch in. In an emergency where I need to apply as much brake as possible and not lock up the wheels, engine braking would be the last thing on my mind. |
Originally Posted by DM426
(Post 16413582)
I've met more than a few riders who have apparently been riding for years using almost all rear brake. It's an extremely bad habit.
From what I can tell, this phenomenon is almost exclusive to Harley riders. I think part of has to do with the way Harley emphasizes the rear brake by building bikes with a pedal that's almost like the brake pedal in a car or SUV. On baggers the rear brake is ridiculous! So it's understandable when some riders, especially those who've always ridden Harleys, start riding their bike like it's a car. There's a lot more to it than just that the front brake has ~75% of the bike's stopping power. Proper use of the front brake brings the bike up on its haunches, compresses the front suspension, and puts the weight up there, greatly increasing the contact patch and potential braking ability. When a rider relies on the rear brake, the suspension is all wrong, the contact patch is small, and the rear brake then just locks up and dumps the rider in the weeds. Not saying that's what happened here, but it sounds like it might have been part of it. Also, emphasizing the rear brake essentially takes trail braking off the table, which basically means the rider has no ability to negotiate around an obstacle once a turn begins. The rear brake on a touring bike is wholly inadequate for emergency stops. Locking the bake brake up first and then applying a "little bit" of front brake isn't the right answer, either. Those front brakes are basically life and death, it's just that simple. |
Originally Posted by guitarfish
(Post 16418804)
I read your post a few times and I'm not getting it. I use downshifting to assist in braking almost all the time in normal riding conditions. The effect is that less brake lever pressure is needed because the engine takes some of the braking load.
To use the engine as a brake, you have to downshift and let out the clutch repeatedly. In a true emergency when braking at maximum, (while trying to avoid a skid on non-ABS bikes), I just don't see how engine braking would have any effect. It could actually induce a skid if done too suddenly. The brakes have the power to lock up the wheels on their own, without any assistance needed from engine braking. Downshifting while hard braking is a good practice because you may suddenly need to accelerate to get out of a situation. Meaning if you brake hard down to 20mph and then want to evade, being in 6th gear isn't going to help. But in this case, I'm talking about downshifting while holding the clutch in. In an emergency where I need to apply as much brake as possible and not lock up the wheels, engine braking would be the last thing on my mind. Please don't misunderstand, I know I cannot throw a 800 lb bagger around like a dirt bike and we are all subject to the rules of physics and the actions of others but I think it helps give me a slight edge in most circumstances. I only mentioned this as it is how I react and to see if others with motocross experience fall back to those skills. I'll knock on wood now not to jinx myself. |
Engine braking is a means for slowing down (say entering a curve), not stopping. As mentioned, down shifting is part of maximum braking for the purpose of having to re-accelerate; not as part of the stopping process.
No matter what you use to brake the rear wheel, engine or brake, it becomes less effective as weight transfers inevitably forward. Moreover, even if your bike has ABS, you can still skid the rear wheel and possibly high side using the engine/clutch as a brake. Unless it has a slipper clutch. |
Take an advanced rider training course. Learn to use your front brake. It'll save your life, and your old lady's.
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Romeo Tango, don't use your front brake at low speeds if your front wheel is turned. Easy to drop that way.
I called my local dealer in the Winter, and asked if he would do a skilled riders course. It took him a while but he dug up 6 students. |
I agree with guitarfish on 2 counts. The first is that you need to get into the habit of using the front break. The second is on the downshifting and using the engine thing. In an emergency situation, I don't want to be down shifting to get myself stopped. I want the bike in gear, brakes on and in control. In those type of situations you don't have time or the coordination to be doing a thousand things at once and downshifting won't stop you any faster than the properly applied breaks will. I want to be in a good gear if I need it, but to use it to aid stopping, no. You need to be more aware of what's going on around you too. Lack of attention is the biggest cause of a lot of accidents whether you are driving a car or riding a bike.
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I hate when you're following someone and then they make a sudden swerve to avoid a stopped car and you realize you are now in trouble.
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Originally Posted by upflying
(Post 16413338)
Proper front brake application would have saved the visit into the ditch.
Live and learn. //That |
Originally Posted by Mr-Mike
(Post 16413389)
This may sound a little harsh but you really need to get on that front brake. Even and especially through corners (fyi braking hard in corners will stand up the bike so you'll have to work a little to keep it over). You are obviously a very prudent rider or you would never have survived this long being afraid to use the front brake (I mean 'USE'). No vehicle brakes effectively relying on the rear.
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