I'll ask again. More specifically. When the Sportster was introduced in 1957, did anyone say, it'll never amount to anything because that Japanese guy is selling bikes for the same demographic for 1/2 the price? For your reference, Honda became THE largest supplier of motorcycles in the world in 1964. Yet 62 years later, Sportsters remain a significant part of H-D's product line. There are few stories that successful, but I wouldn't be so quick to condemn ANY product based on the perceived competition - especially before it's even available!
EDIT - Okay, so I just logged back in and noticed the ad at the top of this page for SDREAM electric bicycles! I tried but can't find a price on them. I did come up with this though.
$1,700 bucks for a USED e-bicycle! It's nothing close to the one in the ad on the forum page but it's a freaking USED pushbike! Trying to predict what this emerging market is, is beyond me. You guys have fun deciding what's too much!
Last edited by username already exists; 02-13-2019 at 04:35 PM.
What really mystifies me, not ONLY in this debate but just about every debate about the MoCo, is how totally incompetent most Harley owners think the company is. Pick any subject and someone - most - will pile on with their own opinions on how Harley made a mistake doing this or that and it's only a matter of time before they close the doors in bankruptcy because of their rampant stupidity... while each and every one of those guys buys and rides one of the same company's products and will taunt every Honda rider about not being a real motorcycle rider.
Hey fellas, there's always a Goldwing with your name on it!
I've never said they were incompetent. I'm saying they are pricing themselves out of being competitive. And yes, I do believe the Livewire (as presented - not the concept) is a MASSIVE mistake.
I like my Street Glide for what it is - a touring bike. The suspension sucked, but I've fixed that, more or less. Also, the bike has that certain intangible harleyness that I really like. Other bikes just don't have it.
As far as the recent downturn in sales overall, I'm not really blaming the Moco for that. They were riding a huge wave of motorcycle sales that was bound to end. And it has.
As far as the general direction the Moco is going, they are losing me as a customer. The bikes are becoming "less Harley" (like the 19 Heritage I spent the day on yesterday) and more something else. Not to say that's bad. Maybe it's what they need to do. But it's not what I want. To me it doesn't feel like a Harley so why should I pay the Harley tax?
Nevada72, You have my sincerest apologies if I offended you. Most of my comments have actually been more-or-less non-targeted, since there is so much naysaying. And that's only among the viewers who are commenting! Harley, and every other motorcycle manufacturer are facing a huge dilemma in attaining mandated standards while maintaining the looks, feel and sounds their customers want. It's only going to get worse. With that in mind I can't help asking, what is harleyness? Actually, I KNOW exactly what you're referring to. We all do and it is what everyone is upset about (well, not everyone). But, and this is the killer, it's not Harley-Davidson's fault that's happening! Government standards on fuel, emissions, sound, safety equipment... There is only so much that can be done and still look and sound relatively like something from 40 years ago.
Harley is CONSTANTLY being beat up from outside for catering to an aging market share and from the inside for not doing something to attract new riders. But the same people complaining (from within, the ones still buying their product) often don't want them to do something new to attract new riders. Instead we want to somehow magically make new riders attracted to what they're already doing. It don't work that way. They desperately need to attract the next generation and the ones from that age group buying Harleys prefer Shovels and Ironheads. That's not gonna help new bike sales! Classic bikes of all kinds, are I believe bigger than new bike sales today. Just another reason for the (across the board) sales slump. If everyone just realized the LiveWire at present is basically a side project. Nothing is being discontinued. Nothing you have now is changing. I don't understand the negativity.
That is the major reason I think the company has something with going after this emerging market. We're going e-vehicles, like it or not. We may have to be dragged kicking and screaming, but before anyone realizes, there's not going to be a choice.
BTW - I thought going to rubber mount frames took away a lot of "harleyness" 15 years ago.
Last edited by username already exists; 02-13-2019 at 07:43 PM.
I totally agree with everything else you said. I am not one of the new wave greenies!!!! I am NOT promoting this bike. I'm not going to buy one but I'd sure as hell ride the wheels off it if someone gave me the chance! All I'm doing is saying let the thing prove itself, or more correctly the e-bike concept as a market share, instead of burying it at birth based on current standards.
HOG IS NOT "losing money," as a company! Profit is way down. Bike sales are waaaaay down (like every comparable brand!) but they are still turning profit. That's not really relevant though. Most successful businesses go through lean times. H-D certainly has before!!! More importantly, neither are they "putting all their eggs in the basket." They haven't discontinued anything. They're still making fat,slim, bob, boy glides. Maybe you're in a thinly populated area, I dunno, but anywhere even remotely near a metro area, those blue charging station signs are popping up everywhere. GM is retooling. EVERY major vehicle manufacturer is devoting huge sums and personnel to e-vehicle R&D. THIS IS THE FUTURE no matter how much petro is in the ground or how much more it's going to cost to restructure the support network. The decision has already been made before the debate began. This is where the industry is going and it's going to be up to the industry to figure out how to do it. To that end, how can H-D be so wrong for getting a jump on the competition?
I've said it already, nobody at H-D is expecting this to carry the company to financial highs - anytime soon. When the internal combustion vehicles become choked by more and more restrictions, we'll have the same people complaining about why didn't Harley get out front with e-bike development. I don't expect that in my lifetime. I do expect e-vehicles to become at least as common as new internal combustion ones though.
As far as the other bikes it's being compared to. Do you think Harley owners in the 50's made the same comparisons to the first Hondas & Yamahas?
I apologize if my previous post seemed like a swipe at you. I was trying it out pretty fast before I had to leave for work and some of it is not phrased the way I intended. Also, my mistake in saying Harley had all their eggs in the Livewire basket. That is obviously not the case and I know that. They have made several other changes.
I don't have any beef with you. We both like motorcycles and have some affection for Harley Davidson, so it is all good. We have a significant difference of opinion about the Livewire (and EVs in general), but hey, if we all agreed on everything the world would be a pretty boring place. I won't debate the issue any further. You won't change my mind and I wont change yours. Time will tell.
I don't wish the MoCo any ill, and I hope they find the new customers they believe will come, because they are sure not doing anything to maintain many of the ones they have. Count me in that camp. I love my Harleys and I have been riding them since the late 70s, but every year I move further and further away from buying a new one.
After riding the Harley touring bikes and the Goldwing, If I get a geezerglide mobile couch it will be a Goldwing.
When I bought my Limited in 2018 I shopped both the new 2018 Goldwing and the new Star Venture from Yamaha. I watched all the YT reviews and read all the stuff I could find. All three bikes are the top of the line for mile munching.
The reasons I ended up with the Limited were:
* 0% financing on the Limited - better than paying cash...every month I get a discount!
* The reduction in storage on the Goldwing would cramp my commute to work...one or two computers, lunch box, rain gear, extra gloves....barely fit in my 2006 K1200GT and the GW has even less storage space. I had extra space commuting on the 1999 Ultra so this was a big consideration.
* The Star Venture has the space and the features but a 4500 RPM fuel cut off seems strange. I may not ever bump into that but every reviewer vid I watched they did.
* The GW and Venture were 'hands off do not touch' at the Powersports dealers let alone taking one for a test ride. At the MSRP+ the dealers wanted (they were both more than the Limited) I passed on the 1970's style of having to buy it to touch it.
To me the Goldwing is a perfect blend between the Limited and the BMW K1600GTL (road rocket with bags) that would allow me to replace both bikes with just one....save for one exception...I would need to wear my backpack while commuting. Ridiculous for a premier touring bike....what were they thinking?
If the aftermarket comes out with luggage lids (color matched) putting the storage at a usable point for me there may be a blue DCT in my future.
If I had written the article I would have started off by saying that I don't know what the Harley Davidson engineers and/or management were thinking (other than is it my turn next to take another hit off the crack pipe) when they thought this brand could help stop the decline in their sales by coming up with a $30,000.00 toy electric motorcycle for young college age men and woman struggling to pay their $200.00 a month Honda car payment and if they are lucky a couple of $60.00 video games. Then some dama__ at Harley Davidson told their co-workers (after they finished taking another crack pipe hit) that we should make a new movie were some Bikers are riding their Livewire toy electric motorcycles to Sturgis for a multi-gang brawl over the end of the world coming soon due to the riding of old-school gasoline powered motorcycles causing climate change.
Harley Davidson engineers and management clearly don't understand that the meaning of "the Green movement" is not about smoking a large amount of weed and then coming up with dumba__ idea's like all of the money they will make with a $30,000.00 electric motorcycle so they can go out and purchase more weed/crack to come up with even more dumb ideas.
Last edited by CobraRacer; 02-14-2019 at 08:37 AM.
I apologize if my previous post seemed like a swipe at you. I was trying it out pretty fast before I had to leave for work and some of it is not phrased the way I intended. Also, my mistake in saying Harley had all their eggs in the Livewire basket. That is obviously not the case and I know that. They have made several other changes.
I don't have any beef with you. We both like motorcycles and have some affection for Harley Davidson, so it is all good. We have a significant difference of opinion about the Livewire (and EVs in general), but hey, if we all agreed on everything the world would be a pretty boring place. I won't debate the issue any further. You won't change my mind and I wont change yours. Time will tell.
I don't wish the MoCo any ill, and I hope they find the new customers they believe will come, because they are sure not doing anything to maintain many of the ones they have. Count me in that camp. I love my Harleys and I have been riding them since the late 70s, but every year I move further and further away from buying a new one.
Thanks! I agree completely. I sure wish more debates around here could end as amicably.
02-13-2019, 02:39 PM
Actually, I KNOW exactly what you're referring to. We all do and it is what everyone is upset about (well, not everyone). But, and this is the killer, it's not Harley-Davidson's fault that's happening! Government standards on fuel, emissions, sound, safety equipment... There is only so much that can be done and still look and sound relatively like something from 40 years ago. 
It don't work that way. They desperately need to attract the next generation and the ones from that age group buying Harleys prefer Shovels and Ironheads. That's not gonna help new bike sales! Classic bikes of all kinds, are I believe bigger than new bike sales today. Just another reason for the (across the board) sales slump. If everyone just realized the LiveWire at present is basically a side project. Nothing is being discontinued. Nothing you have now is changing. I don't understand the negativity.
