Iinstalled SE203 cams (actually wanted Andrews 37s, but they kept back ordering them). Anyways we stuck iton the dyno and out of the box with the SERT stage 1 download it wasreal close. I asked the shop owner about forcing open loop and putting the tables at 13.2 as suggested in themanual and he didn't feel it was necessary as it was very close. In fact he stated he has never done a cam swap onan EFI bike that based line this good.

I'm still confused on how some of the expertsstand on the self tuning part of the 07, but it seems you want to giveit plenty of time to reach full temp and adjust itself before making any changes or you may end upchasing your tail.

Anyways to make a long story short. I think it willbe close enough (with mild cams) that I would recommendlettingyour tuner tune it the way he feels is best.Otherwise you might just be adding time and cost. Without knowing actually airflow into the motor. VE has to becalculated somehow (O2 on exhaust?). Either way the ECM is doing some calculation to arrive at the NEW VE which it will eventually use? When I dynoed the motor on my drag car they were morefocused onthe flow meters monitoring the air going into the motor/the fuel flow (TRUE ARF)than theO2 voltage on the exhaust.

I surewith all ofpositive and encouraging replies we get from OSE on this subject he'll eventuallyjump in and help you out.

Later

 

When you change the Desired AFR Cells to 13, you are establishing a new, but CONSISTENT AFR for the ECM to trigger on.....

With the 13 AFR, you also know that you will be observing, in Step/Sweep Mode, your Target points af MAP/Throttle Pos AFR.....

Going through 2, 5, ........ 60, 80, 100% throttle incrimentally, you are establishing where your Front and rear VE's (Volumetric Effeciencies) need to be set....

When you have the Desired AFR set at 13, you have gone into Open Loop mode, as the AFR trigger for the Closed loop is 14.6.....

After about 2 or 3 Step/Sweep runs through the TP's, you SHOULD have a completely new set of VE's......

Then you go and reset the Desired AFR baselines BACK to their original values, increase CLB values to 798mV, to get the 14.1 (App) AFR for Closed Loop, enable Knock Sense, and send.....

The AFR table is only for modifying the overall DESIRED AFR... The VE's are the main and only TRUE player for establishing the desired AFR from an OBSERVED AFR.....

If I missed something, I am sure that OSE will interject....

 

Very interesting subject... thank you guys for all the information. SHB, your post hits on where some of my confusion lies. I understand that if you take the O2 sensors and closed loop out of the equation, that the VE tables are the key to achieving the desired AFR. However, my question is (and I apologize, I have not actually run in data collection mode, yet, so I don't know what the output looks like firsthand)... Does the ECM actually correct/adjust the VE values (new VE%) via the O2 sensors? And if so, does the ECM store those new values permanently? If that is the case, you wouldn't need to be exact on the VE values, because they would correct themselves. Also, if that is the case could you use the SERT in data collection mode to establish the correct VE values (may not be the optimal method, but is it possible)? Sorry, in advance, if I'm completely missing the boat on this. Thanks.

 

Bob , you have outlined my plan exactly and I understand you perfectly, thankyou, I have also wondered if you could actually use the data mode to tune your ve tables, I use a Twincan II with wideband 02 sensors to help populate my VE tables, I have had very good results on the open loop ecm's, see no reason why it wont work on the 07 closed loop system using the method you outlined above. My bike is an 07 Ultra with 10.1 to 1 compression, woods 7h cams and BigBoyz heads with a D&D Fatcat with quiet baffle, even with a canned map now that is close I cant believe how this thing runs, cant believe there is a whole lot more left in it to coax out, I'm guessing the 02 corrections are helping me out bigtime at this point. I have also noticed in data logging that the ecm is making corrections outside the closed loop area, I find this very interesting, must be using data collected from closed loop to make assumed corrections for open loop operation.

 

Someone has done their homework.....

Yes, the "New" VE's are created via the o2 Integrators.... And YES, those values are part of the map that is being run.....

As far as the accuracy of the updated VE's via Tuning, you are correct.... if you can get them as close to dead nuttz as possible, that is the best, because then the Adaptive fuel, as it updates and creates a damned near perfect map, will also have the "Fudge Factor" built in, for things like sub-standard fuel, intake leaks, radical atmospheric changes and even semi-major exhaust leaks.... Giving it as much as 30% adaptibality is important, the closert you get to perfection on the VE's....

Yes, you can use DATA LOGGING to gather up your "New" VE's, but the thing to think about is you have to know what kind of changes are actually happenning, and take in the "Lag" of data transfer.... What I mean is, it might be just onsies and 2-sies... Let them slide, you need to look for the REALLY major changes in the NEW VE's... To do that you WILL need to have it on a Load Controlled Dyno, to go through EACH and EVERY Throttle Pos as well as MAP Load....

It is easier for myself to run it on a dyno, with 2 AFR Meters, measuring both cylinders through sweep and Step tests, plotting the OBSERVED AFR and making those corrections to the VE tables, and validating those changes....


I have been considering the TS II, but with the tools that I have at my disposal, it will be easier for me to do it on the 250i....

It will populate only theVE's that need correction, from what I see...

The o2's are correcting ALL THE TIME, once they are up to temp...

Keep observing them... you'll see...

 

Well, I had good plans anyway, I built a map that ran very well with my setup using theDTT twinscan IIand ran the bike yesterday for 50-60 miles, bike started running progressively worse, big flat spot off idle and between shifts, reloaded same map bike ran good for a while again, then a big flat spot just off idle and between shifts, What I believe is happening is erroneous readings from the 02 sensors due to the overlap characteristics of the camshafts and possible reversion at low rpm and the ecm is compensating with corrected VE's causing my mixture to go lean off idle in the lower rpm ranges, tuned bike today again without putting bike back into closed loop mode, runs excellent but I am getting a CEL from the o2 sensors being unplugged(they are unplugged to install the wideband sensorsfor the twinscan II) I do not see a viable way around this other than to use some sort of 02 sensor elimiantor, I would much rather incorporate the 02's in the tune, I am hoping it is possible to maybe run a much smaller part of the map in closed loop, say for example, cruise range only, but I am concerned how this would affect the adaptive learning. All this "hidden programming" is being a hidden pain in the ***. If I remeber correctly Shovelhead Bob, you stated the 06 maps will not load into the 07 ECM, if that would work, I would loadaopen loop map, tune the bike the old fashioned way and be done with it.

 

remind me to never try and hold a conversationwith you fellas,,,,,,
I just learned a valuble lesson here................
I dont know Jack Shlt!!! LOL

by the way what language were you speaking??? lol

 

even with a canned map now that is close I cant believe how this thing runs,

Are you saying it runs worse than it did with the canned MAP or just not as you hoped after tuning?

Just an off the wallquestion? Could you load one of the 2007 103" MAP files that spec out head work, high compression and a more aggressive cams and then change the Cubic Inch in the filefrom 103" to96" or your motor size? (just thinking out loadincase someone knows theanswer)

 

already have the 103 cubes, runs awesome till the ecm adjusts it out of spec, just didn't ride it enough at first to find that out. Ran great after tuning, The problem is it wont stay tuned, I can only believe it has to do with the cam overlap causing the 02 sensors to adjust it back out of optimum spec. Does'nt seem to go out of spec with the map adjusted out of closed loop, still throws CEL even with all the afr cells set out of closed loop. I dont give up easy and I am determined to get this thing to run with the 02 sensor feedback, hoping to get some answers here to help figure out exactly what is going on. Gotta be a way to make this work, Hd has some pretty hefty cams for running closed loop also.

 

I hope things work out for you and I'm curious as to what you find. I hate to bring up the obvious but just a few weeks ago I got bashed big time whenI suggested my bike was taking what it learned in closed loop and applying it to open. Anothermember warned of the possiblity of the exact problem you are having.

No expert but I know what I see....Good luck and let us know when you figure it out. Off the internet I've talked to some and this is not an isolated problem with the big cammed 07s, thats why I went with the SE203.