I don't know why some want the added weight, complexity, and expense of a shaft drive on an adventure bike? Especially considering the orientation of this engine's crankshaft, BMW R series and Moto Guzzi's V85TT have it right for that. I'd prefer them put the money is the suspension as well as hopefully they've hired someone from another manufacturer that knows how to design dual sport / adventure motorcycles and get them correctly dialed in before going to production. Things like;
Smooth engine producing lots of torque and no twitchy throttle response.
WIDE ratio transmission with a low first for starting out loaded down with luggage, two up, up a steep rocky, rutted dirt road. As well as a tall 6th for good mpg and relaxed riding across the country on I-80 at 80 mph.
200 mile minimum range before fuel light comes on with another 40 after that.
Tubeless wheels.
Inexpensive to service with long service intervals. (Honda take note of these last two).
Comfortable seat, If you can't figure out how to make one just let Seat Concepts make them for you.
Comfortable ergonomics sitting as well as when standing up on the pegs. I'd like to see adjustable height windshield, seat, and pegs.
Good wind management.
Use only quality stuff because no matter what, this bike isn't going to be cheap so might as well use top shelf components, bearings, brakes, pistons, etc and if doing so cost $900 more just price it accordingly.
That would have my attention! I doubt they'll address this with a price point that is reasonable, but I'm watching anyway. There are a lot of unpaved roads here, and the limited is a bit of a handful.
Sorry but I just don’t see Harley coming out with a shaft drive.... I definitely don’t see them producing several variations with different drive trains. That just ain’t in the MoCo’s wheelhouse. Maybe 2 versions with 2 different engine sizes (maybe) some different color options and a boatload if bolt on accessories that’s about it
That just ain’t in the MoCo’s wheelhouse.
Then maybe they need to get into ANOTHER wheelhouse. They are trying to innovate here to get new riders. Staying in the same "house" isn't the way to do it. That attitude is responsible for where they are at today!
With all due respect, ain't nobody knows nothin' about what it will or won't be yet. It's still over a year away, probably closer to a year and a half away.
If they announced early to get customer/potential buyer feedback, then -- we're suggesting potential buyer feedback.
As far as I'm concerned, if it's a chain, I lose enormous amounts of interest. I do 500+ mile days, I'm not stopping in the middle of the day to clean, lube, and adjust a chain, and then doing it again when I hit the hotel, every day. That's a non-starter. I'm looking for a dedicated touring bike that has some offroad capability. I'm not expecting, or asking, for them to build a Dakar rally machine.
I've been looking most closely at a Triumph 1200 XRX. If the Pan America is reasonably comparable with the Triumph in terms of specs and capabilities, I'd gladly buy the Harley over the Triumph, even if it costs somewhat more, for two main reasons:
1) American made
2) 700 dealers nationwide
Other customers may have other priorities. Those are mine, and I'm content to delay my purchase until I see what the Pan America really offers. If it sucks, I can always just get the Triumph.
I'm with you on everything you said. I don't get the folks that say it's a chain drive and they don't see anything wrong with that. Well, we're Harley riders and we are used to "NO Maintenance" belt drives. Heck, I don't want ANY bike with a chain drive. Who wants to monkey around with lubing and adjusting a chain? Much less having to also replace SPROCKETS too. It's not just the chain that has to be maintained. I've owned chain drive bikes, and I don't EVER want another one.
If that bike doesn't come with a shaft drive, that will automatically limit sales....I think. Why take out a segment of possible owners? Chain riders WILL buy shaft drive bikes. Shaft drive riders will NOT buy chain drive bikes. At least, that's my take on it.
That just ain’t in the MoCo’s wheelhouse.
Then maybe they need to get into ANOTHER wheelhouse. They are trying to innovate here to get new riders. Staying in the same "house" isn't the way to do it. That attitude is responsible for where they are at today!
You don’t go to Pizza Hut and ask for French Fries......
Harley is what it is and it has been that for quite some time. You can innovate all day but don’t ask a fish to fly or a bird to swim and be disappointed in the outcome. If you call making a $30,000 electric motorcycle that majority of your target based consumers can’t afford innovation then it’s your attitude that will sink the ship. Majority of people like Harley’s want to ride Harley’s the frigging issue is MOST PEOPLE CANT AFFORD THEM!!!
So instead of being innovative and making expensive electric bikes or shaft drive transmissions how about you get the price point down on your current models??? You need to draw in the next generation of riders to keep this train rolling and that ain’t gonna happen with $20k and up price tags.
In order for this Pan America to be a hit it needs to be priced under $20k and that ain’t gonna happen with a shaft drive. Harley has belts perfected and a chain drive is simple & easy. For them to spend the money to R&D a shaft drive or outsource it from somebody else just ain’t practical. The cliche is an oldie but a goodie and still holds true......
You don’t go to Pizza Hut and ask for French Fries......
Harley is what it is and it has been that for quite some time. You can innovate all day but don’t ask a fish to fly or a bird to swim and be disappointed in the outcome. If you call making a $30,000 electric motorcycle that majority of your target based consumers can’t afford innovation then it’s your attitude that will sink the ship. Majority of people like Harley’s want to ride Harley’s the frigging issue is MOST PEOPLE CANT AFFORD THEM!!!
So instead of being innovative and making expensive electric bikes or shaft drive transmissions how about you get the price point down on your current models??? You need to draw in the next generation of riders to keep this train rolling and that ain’t gonna happen with $20k and up price tags.
In order for this Pan America to be a hit it needs to be priced under $20k and that ain’t gonna happen with a shaft drive. Harley has belts perfected and a chain drive is simple & easy. For them to spend the money to R&D a shaft drive or outsource it from somebody else just ain’t practical. The cliche is an oldie but a goodie and still holds true......
”Crawl before you can Walk”
OH, I agree with you about pricing. But don't use the Electric Live Wire as an example of the INNOVATION I was talking about. That $30K price tag is ridiculous by any standards.
And I do agree with you about the "most people can't afford them" comment. WE're both on the same page on that.
I guess where we seem to differ is on the "innovation" point, and about shaft drive. Shaft drive isn't innovation. There are plenty of manufacturers that have been making shaft drives for YEARS. It's not rocket science to make a shaft drive bike. Even Harley could do that. 3D print it if they had to. LOL! Now is it more expensive than a chain drive? Yes. Is it more reliable than a chain drive? I think YES. Does it add THAT MUCH to the cost? NO. At least it shouldn't.
Hey, here is an "innovative" idea: How about the MoCo selling the bikes to the DEALER at a lower price. Then the dealer could sell them at a lower price to US! We can see the dealer cost at a few special places on the WEB, but we can't see the price that the MoCo sells to the dealer. I bet that is a whopping profit figure there.
I totally understand your viewpoint...I think. But my viewpoint is that I don't think it's necessarily true that innovation and higher price have to be tied together. I think you can have innovation at the same time with "reasonable" pricing. In fact, that point ISN'T optional anymore for Harley. Their future depends on it!
And all this B.S. about millennials not wanting to buy bikes because they aren't into them is B.S. too. It's what you said: THEY CAN'T AFFORD THEM....YET. But they will be able to in a few years. Right now the have other money pressures on them. The problem is, Harley may not have time to wait until the "mills" can come up with the money. Harley has to do something quickly. And the old "we'll get it out of the faithful" won't work this time. The "faithful" are getting to the age where they aren't buying as much as they used to for two reasons: Their money is being stretched too, for healthcare for one, and worsening economy for another. And they don't see it getting any better in the future.
With all due respect, ain't nobody knows nothin' about what it will or won't be yet. It's still over a year away, probably closer to a year and a half away.
If they announced early to get customer/potential buyer feedback, then -- we're suggesting potential buyer feedback.
As far as I'm concerned, if it's a chain, I lose enormous amounts of interest. I do 500+ mile days, I'm not stopping in the middle of the day to clean, lube, and adjust a chain, and then doing it again when I hit the hotel, every day. That's a non-starter. I'm looking for a dedicated touring bike that has some offroad capability. I'm not expecting, or asking, for them to build a Dakar rally machine.
I've been looking most closely at a Triumph 1200 XRX. If the Pan America is reasonably comparable with the Triumph in terms of specs and capabilities, I'd gladly buy the Harley over the Triumph, even if it costs somewhat more, for two main reasons:
1) American made
2) 700 dealers nationwide
Other customers may have other priorities. Those are mine, and I'm content to delay my purchase until I see what the Pan America really offers. If it sucks, I can always just get the Triumph.
Have you considered the Yamaha Super Tenere ? 1200cc parallel twin with shaft drive, cruise, etc? The ES package includes electronically adjustable suspension and heated grips. Nice dealer support and reasonably priced..
Have you considered the Yamaha Super Tenere ? 1200cc parallel twin with shaft drive, cruise, etc? The ES package includes electronically adjustable suspension and heated grips. Nice dealer support and reasonably priced..
Thanks for the reminder, I haven't gotten out to see one yet, but yes it ticks all the boxes I'm looking for.
I put off any buying plans after Harley's announcement, the Pan America is a stunner and it looks like it would be an ideal stablemate to my Fat Bob . So I am in no big rush, but once we know if there are any deal breakers (for me) with the Pan America, then I will get back to seriously evaluating the other offerings and that Yamaha will be right at the top of the list.
Thanks for the reminder, I haven't gotten out to see one yet, but yes it ticks all the boxes I'm looking for.
I put off any buying plans after Harley's announcement, the Pan America is a stunner and it looks like it would be an ideal stablemate to my Fat Bob . So I am in no big rush, but once we know if there are any deal breakers (for me) with the Pan America, then I will get back to seriously evaluating the other offerings and that Yamaha will be right at the top of the list.
02-08-2019, 04:59 PM
