Profit over Safety
#11
10-31-2018, 12:07 AM
Its not an issue or concern until it happens to their bike. I have been hashing this for over 3 years. Only a couple were believers back then. Many others believe now and more will be joining in. Unfortunately its too late for a true fix as the recall flush is the official fix. If more believed a couple years ago perhaps this would have been addressed properly.
So this week I became a victim of the ABS failure resulting in no rear brakes. I have changed my brake fluid but not per the recommended schedule. I take full responsibility for this and will have to pay for the replacement HCU. My problem is the design, this happened without warning and it happened 21 miles after the dealer performed the recall. The failure without warning (no ABS failure light) disabled my rear brakes. In any other vehicle if the ABS fails it does not render the brakes inoperable.
This is a major design flaw which required a major recall to change the brake fluid. Changing the brake fluid will not alleviate the defect in the HCU. It may prevent the unit from failing but there's no guarantee the unit will not fail over time. What happens when the unit fails from being old or worn? The same thing you lose your braking capability without warning.
So you have to ask why, why would HD create a major recall on a maintenance issue? It's called cover your azz... I don't see HD creating a recall for any other maintenance items.
Parts for the braking system should not be compromised by a flawed design or questionable manufacturing in China. Too many lives at stake. I would be more comfortable if HD would admit there is an issue if you don't perform the recommended maintenance but we're going to make a design change for purchase to prevent the brake failure if the ABS unit fails. I'm going to have the HCU replaced this week but I now have doubt in the braking system.
I owned 3 Harleys in 10 years and I can promise you I will never purchase another. When my safety is compromised by profits it's time to get off the HD loyalty band wagon.
This is a major design flaw which required a major recall to change the brake fluid. Changing the brake fluid will not alleviate the defect in the HCU. It may prevent the unit from failing but there's no guarantee the unit will not fail over time. What happens when the unit fails from being old or worn? The same thing you lose your braking capability without warning.
So you have to ask why, why would HD create a major recall on a maintenance issue? It's called cover your azz... I don't see HD creating a recall for any other maintenance items.
Parts for the braking system should not be compromised by a flawed design or questionable manufacturing in China. Too many lives at stake. I would be more comfortable if HD would admit there is an issue if you don't perform the recommended maintenance but we're going to make a design change for purchase to prevent the brake failure if the ABS unit fails. I'm going to have the HCU replaced this week but I now have doubt in the braking system.
I owned 3 Harleys in 10 years and I can promise you I will never purchase another. When my safety is compromised by profits it's time to get off the HD loyalty band wagon.
#14
10-31-2018, 08:27 AM
#15
10-31-2018, 08:42 AM
I've often wondered if flushing the brake fluid at the recommended intervals would have prevented most, if not all, of these HCU failures? Unfortunately, we'll never know the answer to that question.
Electronic vs Mechanical Failure
I've read multiple times people asking why the MoCo didn't design a failsafe into the ABS system in case of an HCU failure. The MoCo didn't, but they did design in a failsafe in case of an electronic failure. If the ABS system detects an electronic failure in the system, the system defaults to non-ABS. So, there's that. But, the HCU issue is a mechanical failure, presumably caused due to a failure to perform recommended maintenance, and I don't know of any safety system that can predict or react to a sudden mechanical failure. Maybe they could have designed some sort of sensor that detects when the brake pedal or hand brake is engaged and there is no movement in one or all of the brake calipers but, obviously, that wouldn't do any good when you're engaging the brakes while moving. That would have to be a pre-ride test.
Often, these same people follow up with a statement saying that other vehicles that have ABS failures default to non-ABS, but there still is braking ability in these vehicles. Again, we're talking about an electronic failure, not a mechanical failure. Sure, most modern four-wheeled brake systems are independent systems, so if there is a mechanical failure (loss of brake fluid, for instance), the failure would not affect the brakes to the other wheels. Obviously, the systems in four-wheeled vehicles are more robust and more technologically advanced than motorcycle ABS systems, but four-wheeled vehicles have four wheels! I don't know anything about other motorcycle manufacturer's ABS system, but do we know for a fact that their systems are any better than the H-D ABS system when it comes to an HCU failure? If they are, I haven't read anything that says so.
Electronic vs Mechanical Failure
I've read multiple times people asking why the MoCo didn't design a failsafe into the ABS system in case of an HCU failure. The MoCo didn't, but they did design in a failsafe in case of an electronic failure. If the ABS system detects an electronic failure in the system, the system defaults to non-ABS. So, there's that. But, the HCU issue is a mechanical failure, presumably caused due to a failure to perform recommended maintenance, and I don't know of any safety system that can predict or react to a sudden mechanical failure. Maybe they could have designed some sort of sensor that detects when the brake pedal or hand brake is engaged and there is no movement in one or all of the brake calipers but, obviously, that wouldn't do any good when you're engaging the brakes while moving. That would have to be a pre-ride test.
Often, these same people follow up with a statement saying that other vehicles that have ABS failures default to non-ABS, but there still is braking ability in these vehicles. Again, we're talking about an electronic failure, not a mechanical failure. Sure, most modern four-wheeled brake systems are independent systems, so if there is a mechanical failure (loss of brake fluid, for instance), the failure would not affect the brakes to the other wheels. Obviously, the systems in four-wheeled vehicles are more robust and more technologically advanced than motorcycle ABS systems, but four-wheeled vehicles have four wheels! I don't know anything about other motorcycle manufacturer's ABS system, but do we know for a fact that their systems are any better than the H-D ABS system when it comes to an HCU failure? If they are, I haven't read anything that says so.
Last edited by GalvTexGuy; 10-31-2018 at 08:52 AM.
#16
10-31-2018, 09:17 AM
Ultimate HDF Member
But it's your opinion that it's a design flaw. The manufacturer doesn't recognize it as a design flaw nor apparently does the NTSB. I think your pissed because your unit failed out of lack of maintenance and your out $$$$, that I see clearly.
#17
10-31-2018, 09:30 AM
First of all, I agree with the OP as far as NO safety system should ever make things worse. That is tempered by the FACT that there are many other components in the brake system and any one of them can fail and render that brake inoperative. LIFE is not without risk. Another ABS problem has also been heavily discussed, that a bumpy surface combined with a perfectly functioning ABS system can make you temporarily without braking. Combine the two malfunctions and I refuse to have a bike with ABS. Now I am waiting for the stories to start abut how linked brakes caused a crash. There are times on sand and gravel you just don't want to use the front brake. I don't want some engineer to take that decision/option away from me. I am certain that many people disagree, so enjoy your bikes with ABS and linked braking, and GOOD LUCK! Obviously, if I were the OP, would spend a fraction of the repair cost and re-plumb the bike for NO ABS.
Beary
#18
10-31-2018, 09:34 AM
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#19
10-31-2018, 10:11 AM
#20
10-31-2018, 10:23 AM
Well you may think it's about money but I've had this bike since 2010 and my cost of ownership is very low. I'm more concerned about my safety and other riders safety. If this is a design flaw or a material issue is irrelevant... HD should make a move to correct the issue. Think about, If the material inside the ABS is getting corroded because of not flushing, then over time the material will eventually corrode regardless. This issue will not go away by simply changing your fluid every 2 years. It will simply delay it.
I hope this does not happen to you... if it does you will change your opinion.
Can you see clearly now !!!
I hope this does not happen to you... if it does you will change your opinion.
Can you see clearly now !!!