You are correct. The biggest difference, you and I were just visiting and he lives there. Don't know if he can record what the Kpa load is with the engine on and not running or not. You can do it with the PV set to record data log before starting. It will also show up on the gauge display on it. I went back and looked at the data log I did on bike while in Yellowstone and see why it wasn't pinging. It has 35 degrees of timing showing in the 80 Kpa and 5000 rpm and the reported on log timing was 31. The PV has 3 tables in it that will back off the timing due to Cylinder Head temp high, Engine temp and Intake air temp. Don't know if these are running in background or not on the VCI. It maybe that these tables are just working in PV, but they have to be in the VCI to work. I did have to put the numbers in it. That is why it didn't ping anyway. The VE's at 80 Kpa was also in the 100's. This is getting too deep for this late at night.

 

Sounds like a poor tune.. The tuner skimped on the 80 KPA stuff.. A good alpha-n EFI will do better over altitude than a Speed/density system with a marginal tune..

 

Well Max can you explain what "The tuner skimped on the 80 Kpa stuff" means. the other I know what you are talking about and I am not aware of a Mass Air Flow efi for our bikes. Ours are using Map so they are speed/density. The N Alpha just measures Rpm to throttle position which is what the first tuners were. You are welcome to explain why that is better. I guess you could call a mass air flow as used in current automotive systems an N Alpha

 

Well.. It sounds like the map wasn't completely done.. Good closed loop Alpha-N will compensate.. I've not had any issues with Alpha-N at altitude. Closed loop, it simply readjusts.

 

Are you ashamed to say what system you are using. It is named after a snake I think. My BS guard goes up when people start using greek letters to describe how something works. The first fuel injection I had any dealings with was on car that I put the Holley Throttle body on. It definitely beat the carb, but that is about all I can say for it. It only used RPM and Throttle Position and Water temp. to do its adjusting. Had a bunch of pots to turn to get cranking fuel and accelerator pump and idle mixture set and total fuel. No map sensor or O2's. All this was added later. The true Alpha-N may work better at altitude than the speed density system, but how do you prove that. Amazing my 14 ran just as well at altitude of 7000 to 11000 as it does at 90 feet. I guess it is an Alpha-N system. It has the same tuner as the one that was only going to 80% and having trouble. The major difference besides the CanBus system was the 14 map has the option of running the ve table in TPS or Map which is Kpa or %load. Mine was running using Throttle Position Sensor mode so it didn't have to rely on the Map sensor to tell when the throttle was wide open. It was still using all the same sensors as Map does. I have noticed that all the Touring SEPST maps for 14 use the TPS and the 10 to 13 Touring used the Map KPA. Same for the Power Vision except PV gives you the choice. The other kicker is all the Spark maps are Map Kpa on the column axis. Haven't looked at the TTS maps but suspect they are the same. I do know that using Map Kpa on the ve tables came in in 2010 after the TBW started. Sorry for getting so carried away.

 

Well my pinging is down to an occasional KR event. I haven't heard any of the rattling that I get with the canned maps. And as I said earlier retarding the timing hasn't seemed to reduce my performance. When I started this thread I stated that the Andrews 57 cam was giving up quite a bit of low end power to the stock cams. My sons bike could easily pull away from me below 3500 rpms. Since then I was also looking at the mods to the V&H Propipe, specifically drilling a quarter sized hole in the inside baffle. I tried this and guess what? It really works. I can now pull away from my son's bike from 2000 rpms on up to redline. If I hadn't seen it myself I wouldn't have believed this could make such a large difference especially at such low rpms. The guys I ride with said it is a little louder but I can't really tell from the seat. If anyone is running the chrome Pro pipe I highly recommend this easy free mod.
We used a step bit to drill it but the cutter past the 1/2 inch point was too dull and I ended up taking out the rest with a diamond burr in a dremel tool, about a ten minute job. Now it makes me wonder if there is an upper size limit on this hole where you get diminishing gains. I guess I'll leave it for now, I'm pretty happy with the gains.

 

Didn't know the deal about the baffle. Glad you are finally making headway. I was working a few months ago with a guy on here with 57 cams that didn't want to act right. He had the Thundercone mufflers on true duals. He read somewhere or some one told him to bend the edges of the box inside in about 1/2" to allow more flow and his started running right after that. That is something to think about. I know I will remember that one.

 

Nope.. Use a Tmax..Not sure how you get snake out of that.. Cobra? Wouldn't use that thing on my Lawn mower.. TMax is closed loop Alpha-n So your first efi was Alpha-N.. Technically an open loop Alpha-N probably won't work was well as a speed density system of both are calibrated.. and running open loop. Closed loop Alpha-N works real well from levels of -200 feet (Death Valley / Salton Sea) to over 14000 feet (Mt Evans / Pikes Peak). The problem with an open loop speed density system is that all of the VE and Timing cells need to be calibrated. BTW some may say that after 06, HD went closed loop, IMO they didn't.. They only used closed loop to adjust cruise and meet EPA mandated emissions.

Yes I know about the 14's going back to TPS based fueling.. Not sure why.. I know some of the dyno tuners like it.. Maybe due to easier access to all the tuning cells.. Map being load based has to harder to tune when your shop sits at 5000 feet.

 

I should have looked a little closer and reread the thread.. I assumed that the bikes had been tuned in a dyno and the results from that tune.. You guys are V tuning and attempting to go from there.. One thing you might try is adding 5-10% VEs to 80 KPA and up ranges after your smoothing.. I'm not a flash tuner / Speed density guy but I know a few that have V tuned and later gone to a Dyno tuner for a final tune.. They found that the upper KPAs are way lean.. The pinging you are getting is not from to much timing but not enough fuel...

 

Other than the wideband O2 sensors there is absolutely no difference in the way the T Max works as compared to the other flash tuners I am familiar with. The PV, SEPST, and TTS are the only ones I have used. I do have the software downloaded for the T Max. It does use base maps. Not sure where you are coming from with the Alpha-N stuff. If you could explain that in common language that may help me understand. I do mistrust when someone trys to sell me on something by using uncommon terminology. It really doesn't impress me. The T Max uses the same exact sensors as the stock ecm with the exception of the wideband O2's. They are definitely a worth while addition. To say the stock harley's can't handle the altitude my stock 14 with PV and running the TPS horizontal axis on VE's had absolutely no problem at 11,000 feet on the Beartooth Pass. Don't tell me that the T max can handle 11000 feet without losing any power. Physical impossiblity without a blower of some sort. Both my bike and son in laws 12 Limited idled well, no stumbles, acceleration was off maybe 10%, and no pinging. Also didn't try to run 80 mph either. Might miss something like a curve.