Power Vision Information Thread
#8051
02-10-2016, 08:19 PM
Platinum Sponsor
Thanks Jamie- From what I've learned the strategy iterations are updated software and more than just tuning methods - I respectfully ask if you can please look a bit deeper into it. Perhaps the below will help and I apologize in advance for the long post- but I feel it's important to try and present the case.
See the original 358 file attached from my Breakout as loaded by HD. Then look at the PV tune file as given to me initially by DJ, which is a 357 (also attached). there are 35 tuning parameters missing from 357 that were added in 358- and I lost access to all of those settings when I loaded DJ's 357 file. I could not get those settings back until I again used a 358 file for further tuning. Also my bike did not run so hot with DJ's available 357-based tune files, and I tried all of them at the time. Once I was directed back to using a 358 file things go back on track. This is significant to note. Granted, not all of the missing params are relevant to my specific model- but many of them are.
I spoke to a lead tuning tech at HD Glendale last year around summer (He used to run their SE engine upgrade program and in house dyno tuning before HD squashed it). I asked him about diff between 357 and 358 since I had just discovered the problem- He told me they are indeed as you said different tuning strategies but also contain important bug fixes and new features for the ECMs in each newer iteration of bike and model.
For instance, on touring bikes, strategy 617 addressed some bugs present in 614 and also added new features such as spark vs. head temp to help reduce ping. See the DJ public release update pdf here, first page bullet #3, which verifies DJ's acknowledgment that HD does fix bugs with each new strategy software update. http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...Me_3-20-14.pdf
I was told by the HD tech to always use the newest strategy available and not to use one older than my ECM came with. He told me if I used an HD tuning product like the SEPST tuners, it will always force the newest sofware update (strategy) provided by HD, and older versions are obsoleted / not able to load, even if the bike came stock with an older strategy version.
Related, this is from DJ's PV info page here: http://dynojet.com/powervision/power...t-details.aspx
On this short page is stated: "If you choose to use the pre-configured tunes, the device will identify the ECM strategy / software level of the stock calibration, and then automatically sort applicable tune files in groups of relevant modifications for YOUR bike. "
Now if the PV can ID the strategy level and let you choose from that level or newer for database tune files, great- but - all of the listed PV database tunes available for 2012-2016 softails are 100% older 357 - And my 2013 bike came with 358 that has a wide swath of new settings. So the PV is not acting in this regard correctly because DJ is not keeping their strategy files current in relation to new model bikes and HD's ECM software releases. (a strategy version release is actually a software update release)
For 2016 softail / dyna with TBW, I don't see how the available 357-based files are going to work well on those ECMs. They will be missing at least 35 settings and if they come with MAP-based VE then they would be forced to use TPS-based VE's. (not sure which they are though)
I'm not sure how this might affect a warranty situation if bike was brought to dealer for an engine related issue and it was discovered that ECM was running an old strategy file obsoleted by HD, earlier than could possibly have been put on the bike from the factory. That would raise some flags and could potentially void someone's warranty claim (or at least make it more of a hassle than it should be).
I hope at least some of this helps and the above info supports further investigation. fingers are tired...
See the original 358 file attached from my Breakout as loaded by HD. Then look at the PV tune file as given to me initially by DJ, which is a 357 (also attached). there are 35 tuning parameters missing from 357 that were added in 358- and I lost access to all of those settings when I loaded DJ's 357 file. I could not get those settings back until I again used a 358 file for further tuning. Also my bike did not run so hot with DJ's available 357-based tune files, and I tried all of them at the time. Once I was directed back to using a 358 file things go back on track. This is significant to note. Granted, not all of the missing params are relevant to my specific model- but many of them are.
I spoke to a lead tuning tech at HD Glendale last year around summer (He used to run their SE engine upgrade program and in house dyno tuning before HD squashed it). I asked him about diff between 357 and 358 since I had just discovered the problem- He told me they are indeed as you said different tuning strategies but also contain important bug fixes and new features for the ECMs in each newer iteration of bike and model.
For instance, on touring bikes, strategy 617 addressed some bugs present in 614 and also added new features such as spark vs. head temp to help reduce ping. See the DJ public release update pdf here, first page bullet #3, which verifies DJ's acknowledgment that HD does fix bugs with each new strategy software update. http://www.powercommander.com/downlo...Me_3-20-14.pdf
I was told by the HD tech to always use the newest strategy available and not to use one older than my ECM came with. He told me if I used an HD tuning product like the SEPST tuners, it will always force the newest sofware update (strategy) provided by HD, and older versions are obsoleted / not able to load, even if the bike came stock with an older strategy version.
Related, this is from DJ's PV info page here: http://dynojet.com/powervision/power...t-details.aspx
On this short page is stated: "If you choose to use the pre-configured tunes, the device will identify the ECM strategy / software level of the stock calibration, and then automatically sort applicable tune files in groups of relevant modifications for YOUR bike. "
Now if the PV can ID the strategy level and let you choose from that level or newer for database tune files, great- but - all of the listed PV database tunes available for 2012-2016 softails are 100% older 357 - And my 2013 bike came with 358 that has a wide swath of new settings. So the PV is not acting in this regard correctly because DJ is not keeping their strategy files current in relation to new model bikes and HD's ECM software releases. (a strategy version release is actually a software update release)
For 2016 softail / dyna with TBW, I don't see how the available 357-based files are going to work well on those ECMs. They will be missing at least 35 settings and if they come with MAP-based VE then they would be forced to use TPS-based VE's. (not sure which they are though)
I'm not sure how this might affect a warranty situation if bike was brought to dealer for an engine related issue and it was discovered that ECM was running an old strategy file obsoleted by HD, earlier than could possibly have been put on the bike from the factory. That would raise some flags and could potentially void someone's warranty claim (or at least make it more of a hassle than it should be).
I hope at least some of this helps and the above info supports further investigation. fingers are tired...
__________________
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
#8052
02-10-2016, 08:35 PM
Road Warrior
#8053
02-10-2016, 08:36 PM
Here's some added info from another popular Harley rider forum, won't post the link out of respect to this forum. Suffice to say it's some back and forth from someone looking to get a new feature added to their bike's ECM and using the SERT. This is another example to bolster the claim that strategy files contain a lot more important items for the ECM than just the fuel delivery / tuning parameters:
"It is really the ECM strategy (248, 271, newer etc) that controls the functionality of the ECM. Each calibration was done with a certain strategy and will contain the capabilities associated within that strategy.
You can flash any of the applicable calibrations into your ECM...and add the features associated with that strategy. So if you wanted rear offset but no calibration exists for your build...start with a cal that does have rear offset and develop a new cal for your build. You could even start by copying the tables from a cal that is close.
Beauty of the SERT"
So given this example, I was quite disappointed to discover that after flashing a DJ provided tune I lost a large number of factory provided settings in the ECM. Not that any product or system is perfect - overall the PV rocks and wouldn't trade it. But, I do feel it's important to ensure the base software of the tune files being provided are current and not older than what came with the bike from HD. Or at least- let the bike owner know the software version of the tune file is older that what is on their ECM so they can make their own informed choice.
Had I known this up front, I could have easily copied the table settings from the DJ provided tune and pasted into a copy of my current 358 ECM file. WinPV makes that very easy to do.
"It is really the ECM strategy (248, 271, newer etc) that controls the functionality of the ECM. Each calibration was done with a certain strategy and will contain the capabilities associated within that strategy.
You can flash any of the applicable calibrations into your ECM...and add the features associated with that strategy. So if you wanted rear offset but no calibration exists for your build...start with a cal that does have rear offset and develop a new cal for your build. You could even start by copying the tables from a cal that is close.
Beauty of the SERT"
So given this example, I was quite disappointed to discover that after flashing a DJ provided tune I lost a large number of factory provided settings in the ECM. Not that any product or system is perfect - overall the PV rocks and wouldn't trade it. But, I do feel it's important to ensure the base software of the tune files being provided are current and not older than what came with the bike from HD. Or at least- let the bike owner know the software version of the tune file is older that what is on their ECM so they can make their own informed choice.
Had I known this up front, I could have easily copied the table settings from the DJ provided tune and pasted into a copy of my current 358 ECM file. WinPV makes that very easy to do.
#8054
02-10-2016, 08:38 PM
#8055
02-10-2016, 08:51 PM
Respectfully, much of the information in your post is unfortunately not correct. Without sending this thread off track I feel it would be more appropriate to arrange a phone conversation to explain how some of these things work as we are getting way off in left field, and for no reason. If you (or anyone else) would like to call to discuss I can be contacted at 920-423-3309
ok back on track everyone-
#8056
02-10-2016, 08:53 PM
Platinum Sponsor
Here's some added info from another popular Harley rider forum, won't post the link out of respect to this forum. Suffice to say it's some back and forth from someone looking to get a new feature added to their bike's ECM and using the SERT. This is another example to bolster the claim that strategy files contain a lot more important items for the ECM than just the fuel delivery / tuning parameters:
"It is really the ECM strategy (248, 271, newer etc) that controls the functionality of the ECM. Each calibration was done with a certain strategy and will contain the capabilities associated within that strategy.
You can flash any of the applicable calibrations into your ECM...and add the features associated with that strategy. So if you wanted rear offset but no calibration exists for your build...start with a cal that does have rear offset and develop a new cal for your build. You could even start by copying the tables from a cal that is close.
Beauty of the SERT"
So given this example, I was quite disappointed to discover that after flashing a DJ provided tune I lost a large number of factory provided settings in the ECM. Not that any product or system is perfect - overall the PV rocks and wouldn't trade it. But, I do feel it's important to ensure the base software of the tune files being provided are current and not older than what came with the bike from HD. Or at least- let the bike owner know the software version of the tune file is older that what is on their ECM so they can make their own informed choice.
Had I known this up front, I could have easily copied the table settings from the DJ provided tune and pasted into a copy of my current 358 ECM file. WinPV makes that very easy to do.
"It is really the ECM strategy (248, 271, newer etc) that controls the functionality of the ECM. Each calibration was done with a certain strategy and will contain the capabilities associated within that strategy.
You can flash any of the applicable calibrations into your ECM...and add the features associated with that strategy. So if you wanted rear offset but no calibration exists for your build...start with a cal that does have rear offset and develop a new cal for your build. You could even start by copying the tables from a cal that is close.
Beauty of the SERT"
So given this example, I was quite disappointed to discover that after flashing a DJ provided tune I lost a large number of factory provided settings in the ECM. Not that any product or system is perfect - overall the PV rocks and wouldn't trade it. But, I do feel it's important to ensure the base software of the tune files being provided are current and not older than what came with the bike from HD. Or at least- let the bike owner know the software version of the tune file is older that what is on their ECM so they can make their own informed choice.
Had I known this up front, I could have easily copied the table settings from the DJ provided tune and pasted into a copy of my current 358 ECM file. WinPV makes that very easy to do.
Again, this is completely off in left field. You did not lose any of the tuning parameters, tables or fields with a 357 calibration, it appears your tune simply needed to be updated. Are you absolutely sure you understand how to Update your tune using PV?
#8057
02-10-2016, 08:58 PM
Platinum Sponsor
Ok that's cool Jamie- I was hoping that by loading my attached 357 DJ tune (or any of them for 2012-2016 softail in current DB) and comparing in WinPV vs the attached stock 358 file from my Breakout (or any 358 software file), you'd see that there are many ECM settings not written in the 357 software iteration. I can only get those back with the 358 newer version (speedometer correction, EITMS, knock control, Closed Loop, CTS Max TPS and others) . I'm certainly not making it up
ok back on track everyone-
ok back on track everyone-
#8058
02-10-2016, 09:13 PM
Again, 101, use the PV Update Client first, then Update the tune.
To check, I downloaded your 357 tune, updated it and got a bunch of new fields, (including Speedometer Calibration; 36 new fields in all ) just as Jamie said.
And now the transition back to the thread …
to expand a little on what LA_Dog was asking earlier, from what I have read the decel area of the VE tables would have to be increased a little ( manually ) to adjust out gurgling?
I am not ready to give up doing it myself, but since I bought everything from Fuel Moto at least I know I can get direct help if I give up!
To check, I downloaded your 357 tune, updated it and got a bunch of new fields, (including Speedometer Calibration; 36 new fields in all ) just as Jamie said.
And now the transition back to the thread …
to expand a little on what LA_Dog was asking earlier, from what I have read the decel area of the VE tables would have to be increased a little ( manually ) to adjust out gurgling?
I am not ready to give up doing it myself, but since I bought everything from Fuel Moto at least I know I can get direct help if I give up!
Last edited by IKnowNot; 02-10-2016 at 09:48 PM.
#8059
02-11-2016, 01:23 AM
Sure - I know where the "update tune using PV" menu setting is - found that eventually - but that is not the focus. while it does put back missing settings it still leaves the strategy at the same 357 level.
The focus really was trying to explain that HD updates the strategy files for more reasons than just tuning. I still feel that using old strategy files as the cal base for tunes applied to newer bikes - especially 4 years newer, is not entirely right. I'm sure most would anticipate that a product of this caliber would be using all up to date ECM calibration information for their specific bike, model, year, at least as current as what came from the factory.
I do see in the latest set of tune files modified 10/2015, they are still based on the older 357 but the missing settings were added in. Back in April when I first got the PV, and at same time that DJ sent me the custom tune file to use, those settings were missing and frankly I had no idea it needed to be updated - DJ told me it was good to go, and I did not know 357 from 123- most users will not have any idea about ECM calibration revisions or what version shipped with the bike. If they had just sent me a tune based on the current strategy for my 2013 ECM then any problems like this would have been avoided. At least with the new TT-enabled tune file I received from DJ, it is a correct 358 cal.
My point is, why not move to current ECM calibration strategy files and eliminate potential hassle for the new user. HD does not update these very often and I've demonstrated there are other technical factors such as bug fixes with versions, including info to that effect from DJ's own info releases. Or at least, prompt the user in the PV and inform them they are about to load an ECM strategy that is older than the one presently on the ECM.
Also consider, would there be any potential for issue if someone with a 2016 bike rolls into HD service with some type of engine related issue, they run diagnostics on the ECM and see it is running an older ECM calibration strategy from 2012?
If that is all "left field", fine - I'm not going to be rude back though, really no reason for that. Everyone can always agree to disagree and I still greatly appreciate your time and seasoned help here, and for engaging in the discussion. My only intention is to point out an area that should be looked at and can be improved on. Which makes for a better product.
The focus really was trying to explain that HD updates the strategy files for more reasons than just tuning. I still feel that using old strategy files as the cal base for tunes applied to newer bikes - especially 4 years newer, is not entirely right. I'm sure most would anticipate that a product of this caliber would be using all up to date ECM calibration information for their specific bike, model, year, at least as current as what came from the factory.
I do see in the latest set of tune files modified 10/2015, they are still based on the older 357 but the missing settings were added in. Back in April when I first got the PV, and at same time that DJ sent me the custom tune file to use, those settings were missing and frankly I had no idea it needed to be updated - DJ told me it was good to go, and I did not know 357 from 123- most users will not have any idea about ECM calibration revisions or what version shipped with the bike. If they had just sent me a tune based on the current strategy for my 2013 ECM then any problems like this would have been avoided. At least with the new TT-enabled tune file I received from DJ, it is a correct 358 cal.
My point is, why not move to current ECM calibration strategy files and eliminate potential hassle for the new user. HD does not update these very often and I've demonstrated there are other technical factors such as bug fixes with versions, including info to that effect from DJ's own info releases. Or at least, prompt the user in the PV and inform them they are about to load an ECM strategy that is older than the one presently on the ECM.
Also consider, would there be any potential for issue if someone with a 2016 bike rolls into HD service with some type of engine related issue, they run diagnostics on the ECM and see it is running an older ECM calibration strategy from 2012?
If that is all "left field", fine - I'm not going to be rude back though, really no reason for that. Everyone can always agree to disagree and I still greatly appreciate your time and seasoned help here, and for engaging in the discussion. My only intention is to point out an area that should be looked at and can be improved on. Which makes for a better product.
#8060
02-11-2016, 09:07 AM
Again, 101, use the PV Update Client first, then Update the tune.
To check, I downloaded your 357 tune, updated it and got a bunch of new fields, (including Speedometer Calibration; 36 new fields in all ) just as Jamie said.
And now the transition back to the thread …
to expand a little on what LA_Dog was asking earlier, from what I have read the decel area of the VE tables would have to be increased a little ( manually ) to adjust out gurgling?
I am not ready to give up doing it myself, but since I bought everything from Fuel Moto at least I know I can get direct help if I give up!
To check, I downloaded your 357 tune, updated it and got a bunch of new fields, (including Speedometer Calibration; 36 new fields in all ) just as Jamie said.
And now the transition back to the thread …
to expand a little on what LA_Dog was asking earlier, from what I have read the decel area of the VE tables would have to be increased a little ( manually ) to adjust out gurgling?
I am not ready to give up doing it myself, but since I bought everything from Fuel Moto at least I know I can get direct help if I give up!
Not "101" - there is no instruction to that effect in WinPV, PV quick Start Guide, Dynojet's PV FAQ page, or elsewhere in regards to loading a tune received from DJ. You're not going to know an older strategy tune file is missing settings that should be there unless you happen to figure it out on your own at some point and specifically inquire about it. FM may have instructed you to do this but not everyone has bought their PV from them (but they probably should have!)
FM will get you tuned up on the decel popping. A nice thing about PV's Quick Tune is you can make general adjustments on decel fuel and decel spark timing, ride, and see if you are getting closer to resolving it. then use that knowledge along with ride data logging to make the changes more precisely.
E.g. start out with adding +10 to decel fuel and see if it helps.
This is a method I've used to find and permanently reduce decel popping:
Exhaust popping on deceleration is due to a too lean or too rich mixture in the exhaust. Most commonly, the mixture will be too lean. The ECM has three tables which affect this: The Decel Enleanment, the AFR table, and the VE table. Spark timing has some effect as well.
The Decel Enleanment table only acts for a short time (ie 1-2 seconds) after the throttle is closed. Lets say you only have decel cracking right after you decel and close the throttle. To richen the mixture during this time, decrease
the value in the DE table at the engine temperature the problem occurs.
If that does not fix it look to richen or enlean the AFR during the entire decel event. One recommended way is to richen the AFR table in the in the first column (20 kPa between 1750 and 3500 RPM by 5 to 10 percent).
Some experimentation will find the sweet spot that eliminates the popping.
Others have recommended to change the VE table values to eliminate this popping. This will also work, however since changing the VE table has many other effects on engine operation, it's not the best place to start especially if not familiar with making VE changes and outcomes. The decel VE's Jamie already shared with us are the 0,2,5 columns for TPS-based VE tuning.
To determine the MAP and RPM areas that are causing the popping, use the following procedure to "mark" a ride data logging session.
1. Set-up logging to use narrow band tuning signals, start logging then do a 20 minute ride
2. When you are riding and the popping occurs, pull in the clutch and let the engine revs drop to idle
3. When you review the log data, look for that intentional idle spot you created. The MAP and RPM area that caused the popping are right before this.
4. Richen up these MAP and RPM locations in the AFR table. If going richer doesn't help, try going leaner. if neither helps, you can also look at adjusting spark timing in the decel event area. Typically, reducing spark timing in the decel areas will help prevent popping.
-There are other methods, this is just one that I've used.
Last edited by LA_Dog; 02-11-2016 at 09:10 AM.