Hi, so I've read several and even posted in a couple of the cam chain tensioner threads, just getting the concept of the problem, but now I'm trying to explain it to a friend, and I want to make sure I understand a few things, like:

* Confirm which bikes are affected by the so called poor design of the cam chain tensioners. I believe it's on the 88" engines, any other details?

* Any symptoms leading up to a major problem that you notice? Or just have to visually inspect them every so often, as there are no symptoms to notice?

* Where is the best source to explain how to inspect both of the tensioners? I've read some convoluted threads about how some could, and some could not, check them by removing this plate or that plate, using dental mirrors and such. (or if someone wants to just repost the detailed process, that'd be great too).

* Aside from visually inspecting wear, is there a way to specifically measure to estimate remaining wear life once you're in there?

* If you identify you have a problem, whether they're just visually worn so bad, or you measure to realize there is not much life left, what are all the options at this point, and what are some good resources to explore these options? For example, here's what little I know about it, maybe someone can explain these options in more detail, or point to a source, correct me, or add to what I'm saying?

1) Just replaces the 'shoes' themselves and keep rolling, guess you get em from the dealer? Then reinspect at 'x' number of miles later?

2) Upgrade to some hydraulic system? I've heard this in some threads, but don't specifically understand what this involves or who sells the stuff/performs the service.

3) Upgrade to some sort of gear driven system? I've heard about this in some threads, but again, don't totally understand it.

4) I understand some of these options may be done just to mechanically solve the problem, but some people may opt for performance upgrades at the same time, if anyone that attempts to explain one of the above fixes, maybe you could share how to do it the cheapest, as well as any add ons that may make sense for someone to do while in there, if budget allows, or one is interested.

5) At least regarding the above options, if anyone can share pics of worn items, replacement items/systems, pn#s, and anything else you find that's relevant, that would be great.


I posted this in the touring bike section because I have an 03 RKC and my friend has a 99 Ultra and an 06 Ultra. He has more experience working on the Harley's than I do, does all his own wrenching, and probably has friends w/ more experience than he does that he would turn to if needed. I'm mechanically inclined, but take my time getting into things I haven't done before, and may more may not have someone else do certain service work on the bike, depending on the circumstances.

Once it warms up, I'll be putting a lot of miles on the bike, hopefully! This means I'll be hitting 20k miles soon and since the bike was just bought a few months ago from a local guy AND is still under warranty (that guy bought extended warranty), I may bring to dealer for the 20k service, and go over a list of any warranty concerns I may have before it runs out. So, I wanted to learn as much as I could about this issue before I get to that point. If mine are worn, there's a possibility the dealer may replace them under warranty, in which case may delay my need to deal with it, but may still have to deal w/ it at some point.

My friend wanted to know more about the problem, since I read about it on here, and some of our mutual friends heard about the problem too, but had no details to give him. He wants to inspect both of his Ultras to see where he's at.

So, whether I need to make a decision down the road, or my friend has some work to do in the short term, I wanted to get to the bottom of the process and options. Even if I have the dealer look at mine, I want to help him inspect his, and learn more about it first hand.

Seems to me like this is something that every owner of a potentially affected bike should at least be aware of, maybe someone can sticky a topic like this somewhere, once we consolidate all the information into one thread, which might minimize the number of threads related to this subject. Just an idea.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

hay Kurt every question yhou asked has been answered and discussed on this forum over the last several years. but noone is going to type out the several pages of info you asked for. you need to learn to use the search feature on here.
Your friends 99 model should be checked now for worn shoes and you should have them check yours when you have the warrenty work done, even if you have to pay to have it done. it isnt very hard to do. there is a site that shows alot of pics on what to do and what to look for.
My 99 model went nearly 80K before I replaced mine. they were wore some but not bad. but the newer shoe is better plastic so I replaced it.
I just bought this new puter so I dont have all the cam info sites on it. but a search will find them for you

 

I agree it would be a long post to reply with every bit of detail. The bottom line is, the 99, 03 and 06 all have the early style cam shoe tensioners. There is no magical number of miles as to when they are shot. Check them at least 20k miles, some were shot prior to 20k. Options are to check them every now and again and replace when worn, switch over to the HD upgraded cam plate/oil pump/tensioner kit, switch to gear drive (crank runout plays in this decision), or do the so-named "conversion kit" which uses the new style plate and you have limited options of "conversion cams" but that requires a proper tune/fuel management, etc. Inner bearings and outer bearings are something to throw into the discussion as well.

 

Well, I understand that in pieces and parts my questions have been asked before. I've searched several times and read many threads on the subject, but it's been difficult for me w/ my current level of understanding of the v-twin to grasp what some are saying, especially when they just throw in a phrase like 'I upgraded to hydraulics' or 'I upgraded to gear driven' w/out really explaining anything in detail, and the other people in the thread either already know what he's talking about, or don't bother to ask.

When the question came up last night amongst my friends, I came back today to search, only to read several more threads where one poster talked about his specific issue, usually involving inspecting it, trying to see it, suggestions of dental mirrors, and then the thread trails off into nowhere land w/ no specific answers to some of the questions I posted above.

This is one reason why I suggested if we could consolidate the information into one thread, it might be beneficial to everyone, especially if we could get a thread (not necessarily this one) stickied w/ all the answers, it would alert owners who had no idea it was an issue, and give one place for people aware of the issue to learn about it and resolve it if necessary, and reduce the number of future new threads on the subject.

Surely someone remembers one of the more informative threads or resources they used to answer one or more of the questions above and could at least link to it for now.

I could spend a couple more hours searching, and then ask these multiple questions in multiple threads, like one thread ask a guy about hydraulics, and another thread ask someone who commented on gear drives to elaborate, etc. but which way would be more messy?

 

Take to a good Harley dealer and tell him to put in the cam chain tensioner kit,then ride the **** out of it and stop fretting

 

Here is somebody trying to learn something. I will try to answer at least some with what I know for sure. I have eliminated mine myself.

All TC88 engines up to '07 I think.

No symptoms in the early stages. You can cut apart the oil filter and find pieces of the orange plastic for confirmation before opening the engine. If you find pieces, no further inspection is needed IMO. Change them.

Once you have it apart, you might as well change them. There is no real way to gauge how much time they have left. Also, one is easily seen, the other more hidden. If one is bad, change them. I have no experience with the hydraulic system. There are aftermarket companies that have addressed the problem as well, and some have good photos.
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0612_.../photo_06.html

Your three options are correct, and the cheapest thing is number one, but then you have to keep doing it.

I opted for gear drive, but then you have to change the cams as well. If you can visualize a bicycle chain, you realize the wheel turns in the same direction as the pedal crank. Mesh two gears together and they go in opposite directions. Therefore the one cam must be machined backwards to work correctly, so the old ones cannot be used. Also this is a performance opportunity. Different cam grinds are offered by places such as Andrews and S&S. This is a bit of a slippery slope. New cams require new lifters and pushrods. ECM reprogramming...You can go on and on until you are out of money.

I hope this helps.

 

KARZ10 PM sent to you.

 

Thanks for the responses, I'll ck my pm. I did do a couple more hours research on this earlier before dinner, after my last post here. I've learned a little bit more, but my opinion remains the same, this should get detailed and stickied at some point, since it's an obvious wear point across the board for several model years, and no one from Harley's gonna go out of their way to tell you about it, let alone inspect em for free, and a lot of people buying used bikes like me wouldn't know about it, unless you happened to stumble across one of the threads at a place like this, and then realize it might affect you, and then start down the path of hunting information, and apparently irritating everyone who's already responded to someone else's thread about it...

You know, if I came in here and said 'hey I heard there was a problem w/ cam chain tensioners, what's the deal?' then I could understand someone telling me to search first, but if I took the time to write a detailed, but concise, description of the perceived problem, and general understanding of the proposed solutions, and asked for elaboration on them, then it should be obvious I already researched it to some degree. I never heard of a cam chain tensioner until recently, so I think I've detailed the general scope of the problem and proposed solutions pretty good here compared to a lot of the posts I've seen, and at this point, I've looked at over a hundred posts on the subject.

 

Well, here is what I came up w/ so far and emailed to my friend.

At this point, I'll need to read some of this stuff again, I already read the service manual tonight, but will still need to go over all the information I can to understand the exact process for inspection, as well as gain further understanding of each option, so if either of us (me or my friend) do need any work done, we can make an educated decision about which resolution may make sense for us.

If I inspect mine, or have the dealer inspect them, and there is significant wear, then I'd likely try to pursue the warranty route. If they are fine but need attention down the line, post warranty, then at least I'll already know what the deal is. And for my friend, I want to help him inspect them, and help do any work that is needed on his, so I'll be that much more knowledgeable about it. Since he's got some higher mileage bikes, especially the 99, there's a good chance one of them will need some work done.

Anyway, in case it helps anyone else trying to figure this out, here is the most detailed analytical stuff I could come up w/ from the various threads I went over, but if anyone would like to add to a detailed way to inspect, or perform some of these tasks, that'd be cool. I've already found a couple sources noted below where someone has performed a cam change and gear drive conversion, but still don't have a list of vendors or do's / don'ts put together for that, and have very little info on performing the HD Hydraulic upgrade, only that it exists, and some have had the dealer do it...

So, that's what I sent my friend, hopefully it's good enough to catch him up to speed, at least in what I know so far, and we can get down to the details of inspecting our bikes, and see where we're at, but I'll still need to go over the exact process to inspect, I already started skimming the service manual tonight, and then get more details on the cost and projected outcome of each option.


See, I'm really trying to help my friend out too, and he's an older guy who doesn't spend a lot of time online, he does have email, but he only has dial up, so to search all these forums would be tough for him, so I was trying to put together some fairly short reference for his benefit, as well as mine. He can't even view these videos or big pictures from home, he'd have to either be here, or at a friends house, or the library or something, so this is one reason why I was looking for the best source of info, so when he can take the time to go somewhere to look at it all, it would be a realistic venture.

If anyone can add anything to the inspection process specifically that would save time/frustration, the install of the HD solution, or recommend any other resources for the gear driven stuff, that'd be great. Thanks.

 

I heard that company Andrews referenced before, and may have even seen a link to one of their pages, but it didn't register at the time.

I think maybe because I had absorbed all I could about the gear driven stuff, and didn't realize they also provided the hydraulic upgrade solution, apparently according to this article http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0612_...kit/index.html before Harley did.

I think Harley does now offer their hydraulic upgrade solution you can use w/ your stock cams, as to the quality, cost, or convenience of either solution, I'm not sure.

Thanks for your explanation of the gear drive thing. I was trying to explain to my friend on the phone that some opted for this, and thought about it in my head that you have a couple gears so close together, it almost does seem silly to have them run on a chain, but then I thought about how one would change directions and how that must affect the operation. Now you say one cam has to be engineered backwards to make that work, it makes sense to me now.

I know my friend likes things stock, he wants to get on his bike and ride it across country for a couple months at a time, and get as good gas mileage as he can, so I doubt he'd go for any of the performance upgrades and gear drive stuff, but I still want to understand all the options.

Thanks for the help. I'll definitely send him the article and link from Andrews, pretty good explanation on there.