Stage 1 Recalibration FACTS inside
#31
See the below link as the AFR is adj with stage 1 and even more with stage 2.
http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/c...l-map-revealed
http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/c...l-map-revealed
#32
Then they would say "I'm thinking of a number between $1 and $150"
#33
I've read that article, and it only shows differences between stage I and II downloads. Does nothing to disprove the ECM's ability to adjust to minor mods. For someone that seems to want to correct and inform everyone I thought you would understand what datalogs, and fuel trims are. Beleive what you want and spend your money how you want, but if you want to talk about facts, the only way to prove ECM is or isn't adjusting to minor mods is to look at datalogs with wideband readings and fuel trims.
Last edited by joflewbyu2; 07-17-2010 at 11:12 PM.
#34
U R way off base. I showed the info requested. Not once did I say stock ecm would not make minor adjustments. Stock ecm won't advance the timing nor raise the limiter with add on intake or exhaust. Fact is stage 1 does more than adjust AFR a tad. Those assuming stage 1 closed loop adjustment will be like AFR in open loop are misled. EPA won't allow it. BTW, stage 1 with heavy breather and race slip ons are beyond the stock ecm adjustment capability. Sure it will adjust a little, but full benefit will need the stage 1 recalibration. HD info: Twin Cam 96CID maximum power improvement without remap is 3% torque and 7% horsepower versus stage 1 remap of 7% torque and 12% horsepower with SE street legal mufflers and regular stage 1 intake (29773-02c) not heavy breather (29299-08). HD and supplier K&N admit the heavy breather offers improved performance and air flow when compared to the stock or Screamin' Eagle High Flow air cleaner.
stage 1 with heavy breather and race slip ons are beyond the stock ecm adjustment capability
#35
I would take them to court here in Ca. in a minute.
It would cost me nothing. Plenty of lawyers here that work Magnuson-Moss on contingency.
Do you think leaving such a thing up to a judge would be anything I'd agree to?
Might as well just accept a binding arbitration.
Almost guaranteed to come in favor of the corp.
You need to realize, it's not just what the Moco says. It's what the law says.
Maybe not in a place like Canada where the subjects readily relinquish their rights but here. it is.
It would cost me nothing. Plenty of lawyers here that work Magnuson-Moss on contingency.
Do you think leaving such a thing up to a judge would be anything I'd agree to?
Might as well just accept a binding arbitration.
Almost guaranteed to come in favor of the corp.
You need to realize, it's not just what the Moco says. It's what the law says.
Maybe not in a place like Canada where the subjects readily relinquish their rights but here. it is.
If your wheel bearing goes out and you added an air cleaner, that is a magnuson-moss covered repair.
I think you're confused about what exactly Magnuson-Moss says. They can still deny claims based on related modifications done that they do not find acceptable and might have caused the problem in the first place.
Good luck getting any engine warranty work done after modifying the engine with unapproved parts in an unapproved way.
And I don't get your comment about not leaving it up to a judge... that's what court is. The judge has the ultimate veto in deciding whether or not the law was broken and if the plaintiff gets awarded whatever it is he's asking for. Even then, the judge can decide what exactly the plaintiff gets awarded.
And your Canada comment was uncalled for, I have been discussing things here based on the Magnuson-Moss Act, not the Canadian consumer protection laws.
Last edited by KnightWRX; 07-18-2010 at 10:22 AM.
#36
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A judge is only a referee in the court room. Decisions are made by the jury even in a civil matter.
I've seen where the Moco has attempted to deny warranty on modified engines and lost their ***.
Magnusson Moss guarantees you the right to use aftermarket parts.
Now, if you were talking about major changes to an engines systems like cams and modified heads I could see where they might have a leg to stand on.
Even using H-D supplied high performance parts will void your engine warranty.
I've seen where the Moco has attempted to deny warranty on modified engines and lost their ***.
Magnusson Moss guarantees you the right to use aftermarket parts.
Now, if you were talking about major changes to an engines systems like cams and modified heads I could see where they might have a leg to stand on.
Even using H-D supplied high performance parts will void your engine warranty.
#37
You have every right to use aftermarket parts according to Magnuson-Moss, assuming they are equivalent to OEM replacements. Performance parts never are, hence why they are "Performance" parts. That leaves a big gray area for claim denials. It's a much bigger problem in the car bizz. Aftermarket air filter from K&N ? Oh... no more engine work for you! You need to use OEM equivalents boy and Magnuson-Moss can't help you. Subaru are big offenders on this. SPT and STI aftermarket parts are the only thing that won't result in automatic claim denials.
Are you just arguing for arguing's sake here ? Because it's pretty evident : Warranty work is one of the big reasons to go for the Stage 1 download. Peace of mind. That's my only point. Not saying the Stage 1 is good or any way actually needed, just do it if you don't want crap with the warranty. You can't argue that all you've been saying removes the peace of mind factor, since "fighting for your rights" is not anything that is ever peaceful.
Last edited by KnightWRX; 07-18-2010 at 12:37 PM.
#38
Many members are confused about whether the ECM adapts to intake and exhaust changes of the 07+ bikes (06 for the dyna) that use narrow band oxygen sensors. Yes and no are the answers. Let me explain in more depth. In closed loop (below 3750 RPM and under 3/4 load) the ECM will adjust to the parameters of the NBO2 sensors. These parameters are small and will keep you at 14.6 AFR. The open loop map (above 3750 RPM and more than 3/4 load) is not adjusted by the feedback of the NBO2 sensors. They are a preloaded map with AFR of 12.5 - 13.9 that are adjusted for a certain VE. Once that VE is changed by intake or exhaust the AFR will change. How much is the question. I have read as much as .4 which would lead to AFR as high as 14.3 under load which is dangerous. Sure, 14.3 is richer than 14.6 but under load at higher RPMs it needs to be richer - below 13.1 is preferred. That is why HD puts the disclaimers on the SE parts. So yes, without stage 1 remap the closed loop AFR will stay at 14.6 but open loop under load will not adjust and will be leaner than factory preset map AFR.
#39
While I am new to Harley's, I am not new to EFI. I have worked with Mass Air, Speed Density, and Alpha-N systems. I tend to agree with joflewbyu2.
O/L with speed density is nothing more than tables. The tables are simply load vs. rpm. The ECM does not have the ability to change cell values on the table. Anything that changes VE will change the preceived "load". Without correct changes on the table, the AFR will not be optimum.
NBO2s don not even have enough range to read the AFR at WOT, so how could they come into play to adjust values?
Also, for my curiousity, I would like to see a stock load table compared to a Stage 1. Either Delphi was smart enough to add some unused columns to the RPM side, or the Stage 1 splits the columns to allow cells in the extended RPM range.
O/L with speed density is nothing more than tables. The tables are simply load vs. rpm. The ECM does not have the ability to change cell values on the table. Anything that changes VE will change the preceived "load". Without correct changes on the table, the AFR will not be optimum.
NBO2s don not even have enough range to read the AFR at WOT, so how could they come into play to adjust values?
Also, for my curiousity, I would like to see a stock load table compared to a Stage 1. Either Delphi was smart enough to add some unused columns to the RPM side, or the Stage 1 splits the columns to allow cells in the extended RPM range.
#40
Many members are confused about whether the ECM adapts to intake and exhaust changes of the 07+ bikes (06 for the dyna) that use narrow band oxygen sensors. Yes and no are the answers. Let me explain in more depth. In closed loop (below 3750 RPM and under 3/4 load) the ECM will adjust to the parameters of the NBO2 sensors. These parameters are small and will keep you at 14.6 AFR. The open loop map (above 3750 RPM and more than 3/4 load) is not adjusted by the feedback of the NBO2 sensors. They are a preloaded map with AFR of 12.5 - 13.9 that are adjusted for a certain VE. Once that VE is changed by intake or exhaust the AFR will change. How much is the question. I have read as much as .4 which would lead to AFR as high as 14.3 under load which is dangerous. Sure, 14.3 is richer than 14.6 but under load at higher RPMs it needs to be richer - below 13.1 is preferred. That is why HD puts the disclaimers on the SE parts. So yes, without stage 1 remap the closed loop AFR will stay at 14.6 but open loop under load will not adjust and will be leaner than factory preset map AFR.
On a closed loop bike the Adaptive fuel values are applied in both open and closed loop. So unless you reset/clear those value prior to each data run your just pissing in the wind. The ECM has a fixed amount of learn cells. Those learn cells control the fuel adaptive value when the engine is in there range. These cells can and have been changed in size and location so nothing is going to be the same on all calibrations or work the same across the board. The values are applied anytime the motor is in that range no matter if it's closed or open loop. The adaptive values are applied to the VE part of the calculation for fuel.
Last edited by jstreet0204; 07-23-2010 at 05:31 PM.