I've read that article, and it only shows differences between stage I and II downloads. Does nothing to disprove the ECM's ability to adjust to minor mods. For someone that seems to want to correct and inform everyone I thought you would understand what datalogs, and fuel trims are. Beleive what you want and spend your money how you want, but if you want to talk about facts, the only way to prove ECM is or isn't adjusting to minor mods is to look at datalogs with wideband readings and fuel trims.

 

If they are honest, otherwise, you may have it and a dealer may say, "No, but I can do it right now", "It's not the right map for your bike", " you have the old map, we can do the new one for"...

Then they would say "I'm thinking of a number between $1 and $150"

 

I showed info revelent. Not once did I say stock ecm would not make minor adjustments. Stock ecm won't advance the timing nor raise the limiter with add on intake or exhaust. Fact is stage 1 does more than adjust AFR a tad. Those assuming stage 1 closed loop adjustment will be like AFR in open loop are misled. EPA won't allow it. BTW, stage 1 with heavy breather and race slip ons are beyond the stock ecm adjustment capability. Sure it will adjust a little, but full benefit will need the stage 1 recalibration. HD info: Twin Cam 96CID maximum power improvement without remap is 3% torque and 7% horsepower versus stage 1 remap of 7% torque and 12% horsepower with SE street legal mufflers and regular stage 1 intake (29773-02c) not heavy breather (29299-08). HD and supplier K&N admit the heavy breather offers improved performance and air flow when compared to the stock or Screamin' Eagle High Flow air cleaner.

 

You replied to my quote about datalogs and fuel trims proving adaptive capability, which were not in the link you replied with. So I have no idea what info requested you are talking about. Your original post seems to imply that the ECM will not adjust. I personally have no problem with the stage 1 download as an option, just not the only or best option.

Maybe maybe not, but if you are going to state is a fact (which is what you said this post was about, facts), back it up. Show us some datalogs with maxed out fuel trims and lean open loop a/f. Otherwise you are just repeating something you heard.

 

Magnuson-Moss covers voiding of warranties on unrelated parts. Modifying the engine and an engine failure are not unrelated. A spun rod bearing and your failure to comply to indications while adding an Air Cleaner is not a clear cut Magnuson-Moss case as you put it.

If your wheel bearing goes out and you added an air cleaner, that is a magnuson-moss covered repair.

I think you're confused about what exactly Magnuson-Moss says. They can still deny claims based on related modifications done that they do not find acceptable and might have caused the problem in the first place.

Good luck getting any engine warranty work done after modifying the engine with unapproved parts in an unapproved way.

And I don't get your comment about not leaving it up to a judge... that's what court is. The judge has the ultimate veto in deciding whether or not the law was broken and if the plaintiff gets awarded whatever it is he's asking for. Even then, the judge can decide what exactly the plaintiff gets awarded.

And your Canada comment was uncalled for, I have been discussing things here based on the Magnuson-Moss Act, not the Canadian consumer protection laws.

 

A judge is only a referee in the court room. Decisions are made by the jury even in a civil matter.
I've seen where the Moco has attempted to deny warranty on modified engines and lost their ***.
Magnusson Moss guarantees you the right to use aftermarket parts.
Now, if you were talking about major changes to an engines systems like cams and modified heads I could see where they might have a leg to stand on.
Even using H-D supplied high performance parts will void your engine warranty.

 

That's if you get a jury trial. This is not automatic, you have to request it. And the judge can very much veto the jury if he finds the jury did not respect the law in their decision.

Not tuning your ECM after installing an air cleaner is not an after market part, it's a required modification according to Harley Davidson. Again, my own dealer says "Any air cleaner you want, we don't care. Stage 1 download for warranty".

Again, claim denial is not a void warranty. And an air cleaner that provides more air and thus requires more fuel is as much a big change as a cam that opens the valves more, or longer, or earlier, or a combination of all of these. Heck, just adjusting your timing, not even adding parts, could result in claim denials if you do not do it in an approved way (if Harley says no more than 3 degrees advance and you put it at 6 because the butt dyno tells you it's fine, don't be surprised when the moco refuses to warranty the rod that snapped).

You have every right to use aftermarket parts according to Magnuson-Moss, assuming they are equivalent to OEM replacements. Performance parts never are, hence why they are "Performance" parts. That leaves a big gray area for claim denials. It's a much bigger problem in the car bizz. Aftermarket air filter from K&N ? Oh... no more engine work for you! You need to use OEM equivalents boy and Magnuson-Moss can't help you. Subaru are big offenders on this. SPT and STI aftermarket parts are the only thing that won't result in automatic claim denials.

Are you just arguing for arguing's sake here ? Because it's pretty evident : Warranty work is one of the big reasons to go for the Stage 1 download. Peace of mind. That's my only point. Not saying the Stage 1 is good or any way actually needed, just do it if you don't want crap with the warranty. You can't argue that all you've been saying removes the peace of mind factor, since "fighting for your rights" is not anything that is ever peaceful.

 

Many members are confused about whether the ECM adapts to intake and exhaust changes of the 07+ bikes (06 for the dyna) that use narrow band oxygen sensors. Yes and no are the answers. Let me explain in more depth. In closed loop (below 3750 RPM and under 3/4 load) the ECM will adjust to the parameters of the NBO2 sensors. These parameters are small and will keep you at 14.6 AFR. The open loop map (above 3750 RPM and more than 3/4 load) is not adjusted by the feedback of the NBO2 sensors. They are a preloaded map with AFR of 12.5 - 13.9 that are adjusted for a certain VE. Once that VE is changed by intake or exhaust the AFR will change. How much is the question. I have read as much as .4 which would lead to AFR as high as 14.3 under load which is dangerous. Sure, 14.3 is richer than 14.6 but under load at higher RPMs it needs to be richer - below 13.1 is preferred. That is why HD puts the disclaimers on the SE parts. So yes, without stage 1 remap the closed loop AFR will stay at 14.6 but open loop under load will not adjust and will be leaner than factory preset map AFR.

 

While I am new to Harley's, I am not new to EFI. I have worked with Mass Air, Speed Density, and Alpha-N systems. I tend to agree with joflewbyu2.

O/L with speed density is nothing more than tables. The tables are simply load vs. rpm. The ECM does not have the ability to change cell values on the table. Anything that changes VE will change the preceived "load". Without correct changes on the table, the AFR will not be optimum.

NBO2s don not even have enough range to read the AFR at WOT, so how could they come into play to adjust values?

Also, for my curiousity, I would like to see a stock load table compared to a Stage 1. Either Delphi was smart enough to add some unused columns to the RPM side, or the Stage 1 splits the columns to allow cells in the extended RPM range.

 

So you are saying no adaptive learning is applied in closed loop? Sorry, but that is wrong. Below is some info from Steve Cole of TTS, I will take his word any day. He has many posts in the EFI section, and you could learn alot by reading them.

The confusion isn't if it will adapt in open loop, it is how much. I've read 10 to 15%