Tech said to remove O2 sensors with fuel pak
#31
06-27-2013, 11:11 AM
So with the money that you will have invested in different tuners, why not just get a real tuner and be done with it?
#32
06-27-2013, 11:13 AM
#34
09-20-2013, 09:33 PM
Good stuff here guys, thanks. I sent an e-mail asking about the P0134 and P0154 codes my 2010 FLHX is throwing. I have the Fuel Pack and a Propipe. I didn't get a response right away so I called V&H.
The guy on the phone said he thinks I have the eliminator connectors and said not to worry. The guy answering the e-mail came back and said I should have the sensors checked out.
Can you tell me how to check if I do in fact have these eliminators hooked up?
Thanks again guys!
The guy on the phone said he thinks I have the eliminator connectors and said not to worry. The guy answering the e-mail came back and said I should have the sensors checked out.
Can you tell me how to check if I do in fact have these eliminators hooked up?
Thanks again guys!
#35
09-20-2013, 10:41 PM
personally what ever tuner you have or buy, if the maker says disconnect 02 plugs,then do it.. A dealer will always hang **** on an other brand off product he doesn't sell. I run pc3 on my dyna with no 02 scencors as PC said too disconnect..No tunning issues.. Closed loop/open loop are different tunes..Personnally I think dyno tunes are a waste off money just wanking rights too show your mates.. BUT its up too you on views..
#36
09-20-2013, 10:45 PM
Good stuff here guys, thanks. I sent an e-mail asking about the P0134 and P0154 codes my 2010 FLHX is throwing. I have the Fuel Pack and a Propipe. I didn't get a response right away so I called V&H.
The guy on the phone said he thinks I have the eliminator connectors and said not to worry. The guy answering the e-mail came back and said I should have the sensors checked out.
Can you tell me how to check if I do in fact have these eliminators hooked up?
Thanks again guys!
The guy on the phone said he thinks I have the eliminator connectors and said not to worry. The guy answering the e-mail came back and said I should have the sensors checked out.
Can you tell me how to check if I do in fact have these eliminators hooked up?
Thanks again guys!
#37
09-21-2013, 08:31 AM
Advanced
I'm kind of dumb when it comes to these fuel pak things. So, the idea is, the fuel pak is like a controller for the ECM and it tells the ECM, "just stay in open loop and run the fuel at these values," is that right? If so, why did H-D spend all the time and money developing the Delphi ECM? The fuel pak isn't concerned with the feedback from the O2 sensors and the motorcycle seems to still run okay... at least that's the report from riders I've talked to.
If you put one of these fuel paks on your motorcycle, a tuner can tune the fuel pak without regard to the ECM, is that right? So the tuner just builds a map in a dyno chamber and says, "here you go." What happens when you're riding in temperatures that are significantly different from the dyno chamber?
Sorry if I'm hijacking. I'm just confused about the benefits of a fuel pak over tuning the ECM directly and using feedback from the O2 sensors to keep everything running optimally.
If you put one of these fuel paks on your motorcycle, a tuner can tune the fuel pak without regard to the ECM, is that right? So the tuner just builds a map in a dyno chamber and says, "here you go." What happens when you're riding in temperatures that are significantly different from the dyno chamber?
Sorry if I'm hijacking. I'm just confused about the benefits of a fuel pak over tuning the ECM directly and using feedback from the O2 sensors to keep everything running optimally.
#38
09-21-2013, 08:39 AM
Ok. I see where you are coming from.
You are in error on one point: "When you install a tuner , tts, pcv or the pcIII, you input a set of measurements through your tuned into your ecm that your ecm will use bypassing or eliminating the measurements from your o2 sensor". There is no input back from a tuner to the ECU from a bolt-on fueler like a PCV.
Here's a bit more info...
When you bolt-on a fueler like a PCV it sits between the output of the ECU and the injectors. It alters the signals out of the ECU to increase or decrease the timing of the injectors to lean or richen the mixture.
They are popular with tuners (especially indies) because they can be fitted to most bikes and they only have to know how to work a PowerCommander, not understand or be able to work with the stock EFI system with its proprietry and, in some cases, locked-down ECUs.
The downside to them is that if the O2 sensors are left enabled the ECU tends to try to override the extra fuel the fueler is adding and the tune drifts. So eliminators are added and the O2 sensors disabled. The downside to this is as I said before, the engine loses a major self-tuning ability and can no longer cope so well with variations in temp, pressure and fuel i.e. external things that effect the AFR.
This limitation is well known by the manufacturers. Dynojet offer a solution to this by selling an additional piece of kit: the AutoTuner. This puts O2 sensors back into the picture, but connected to the PCV rather than the ECU. If you invest in this then you have a good solution. However the price for this is now around $750.
So what a lot of people do is put on a fueler, eliminate the stock O2 sensors, then either just load a canned map or else get the bike tuned. The numbers look OK whilst on the dyno and everyone is happy. Even after the it goes out of tune afterwards its still better than stock so its still OK.
However, for similar money to just a PCV, you can fit a TTS or SEPST and still make use of the stock O2 sensors. The downside to this though is that the tuner needs to understand the ECU and that skill is rarer but if done properly then you get a very good tune that stays put.
You are in error on one point: "When you install a tuner , tts, pcv or the pcIII, you input a set of measurements through your tuned into your ecm that your ecm will use bypassing or eliminating the measurements from your o2 sensor". There is no input back from a tuner to the ECU from a bolt-on fueler like a PCV.
Here's a bit more info...
When you bolt-on a fueler like a PCV it sits between the output of the ECU and the injectors. It alters the signals out of the ECU to increase or decrease the timing of the injectors to lean or richen the mixture.
They are popular with tuners (especially indies) because they can be fitted to most bikes and they only have to know how to work a PowerCommander, not understand or be able to work with the stock EFI system with its proprietry and, in some cases, locked-down ECUs.
The downside to them is that if the O2 sensors are left enabled the ECU tends to try to override the extra fuel the fueler is adding and the tune drifts. So eliminators are added and the O2 sensors disabled. The downside to this is as I said before, the engine loses a major self-tuning ability and can no longer cope so well with variations in temp, pressure and fuel i.e. external things that effect the AFR.
This limitation is well known by the manufacturers. Dynojet offer a solution to this by selling an additional piece of kit: the AutoTuner. This puts O2 sensors back into the picture, but connected to the PCV rather than the ECU. If you invest in this then you have a good solution. However the price for this is now around $750.
So what a lot of people do is put on a fueler, eliminate the stock O2 sensors, then either just load a canned map or else get the bike tuned. The numbers look OK whilst on the dyno and everyone is happy. Even after the it goes out of tune afterwards its still better than stock so its still OK.
However, for similar money to just a PCV, you can fit a TTS or SEPST and still make use of the stock O2 sensors. The downside to this though is that the tuner needs to understand the ECU and that skill is rarer but if done properly then you get a very good tune that stays put.
#39
09-21-2013, 09:05 AM
If I remember correctly, your ecm receives data from multiple sensors (air temp, crank position etc) the O2 censor is one of them. The reason a number of fuel management systems require that you disconnect the O2 sensor is because factory O2 sensor are narrow band, and in closed loop, they will overide the other sensors to maintain the EPA 14.7:1 fuel ratio. The benefits of the tuner will not be realized until you require the bike to operate in an open loop scenario (i.e WOT). When you eliminate the O2 censors the bike operates in open loop, still receiving information from the other sensors and adjusts by pulling data from your canned map based on your set up (A/C, exhaust, valves etc).
Fuel mangement systems that auto tune will use wide band O2 censors allowing the best of both worlds. More accurate adjustments based on real time without the narrow band O2 sensors saying F**k you to the other sensors to maintain EPA fuel ratios.
American Iron has run a few articles on this topic. Fuel Moto used to have a great article explaining this. I will post if I find it.
Fuel mangement systems that auto tune will use wide band O2 censors allowing the best of both worlds. More accurate adjustments based on real time without the narrow band O2 sensors saying F**k you to the other sensors to maintain EPA fuel ratios.
American Iron has run a few articles on this topic. Fuel Moto used to have a great article explaining this. I will post if I find it.
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splattttttt (11-06-2017)
#40
09-21-2013, 09:10 AM
Found the article. The article was written by Jaime at Fuel Moto a few years back. It doesn't address auto tune products but you will get the idea.
Because of the large amount of questions I receive about the O2 sensors and all of the incorrect information we have seen on the Harley EFI, I will further explain how the closed loop EFI system works on the Harley Delphi system and why Dynojet has developed the Power Commander with O2 sensor eliminators. First I will start by explaining how the narrowband O2 sensor works. Keep in mind the O2 sensor is only one of the many sensors which monitors engine functions in the speed density system and with the O2 sensor eliminators installed. Your EFI system will continue to constantly adjust for changing conditions as you ride such as temperature, altitude, humidity, etc.. based on the ECM's programming and lookup tables which are very accurate at providing the proper fuel and ignition timing requirements for the stock components (although the calibrations are very lean which is why we are tuning in the first place). The O2 sensors are not used to calculate fuel requirements, it is simply a feedback device to ensure the air fuel ratio in the cruse areas is within EPA requirements to maintain a 14.7:1 A/F ratio. The narrowband O2 sensor can only accurately measure a small area within 14.7:1 stoichiometric air/fuel ratio range and works by providing a voltage signal to the ECM which then will continuously monitor the stoichiometric mid point crossover and adjust accordingly until the A/F is in the 14.7:1 range. The ECM is only using the O2 sensor feedback signal when the system is in closed loop mode. Closed loop mode occurs only under certain conditions which are light load, steady speed part throttle, constant mode below approx 40% throttle. It is only after these conditions that the will EFI go into closed loop mode and the ECM will adjust until the O2 crossover point is in the 14.7:1 A/F range. Simply put, a narrowband O2 sensor only works for adjusting low load/cruise area and does not work well in performance applications because it can only monitor a small area within the stoichiometric A/F range. With that being said, yes the stock EFI can adjust itself on these Harley models. That is if you consider the small amount of time it is in closed loop, and then when the ECM is able to adjust A/F it can only adjust it within the 14.7:1 range which is WAY too lean. For reasonable performance and drivability this 14.7:1 A/F is extremely lean and this is the reason for the 07-08 bikes to run very hot with poor drivability. This condition gets even worse when you change your exhaust or air cleaner. Optimum A/F ratio for cruise area is 13.4-13.8:1 and 12.8-13.2:1 for wide open throttle. When you install an aftermarket EFI module (regardless of manufacturer) for the ability to tune below 40% throttle you will need to utilize O2 sensor eliminators. This will prevent the EFI from going into closed loop mode and you will be able to tune to an optimum A/F ratio for the bike to run properly, otherwise the stock O2 sensors and closed loop mode will try to lean the mixture within the 14.7:1 range. Even with the Harley Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in which you can retain the O2 sensors, again you can still only work within the stoichiometric range which is the only voltage the O2 sensors can measure. Dynojet certainly has the technology to develop a Power Commander for the Harley models with a Wideband sensor that replaces the stock O2 sensor which would be able to tune in real time to target A/F ratios, Power modes etc. although with the relatively simple design of the Harley/Delphi injection the current Power Commander USB is more than capable of adjusting what we need to adjust at the moment. Keep in mind in Japanese applications the Power Commander is widely used as well in EFI systems that are far more complex than the Harley Delphi system with technology such as Dual ECU's, computer controlled secondary throttle blades, multiple staged injectors for each cylinder, fly by wire throttle and servo operated variable intake length. From our experience tuning bikes everyday we know the Power Commander is the best EFI module available and works like no other to effectively adjust the EFI in the full range of RPM's and throttle positions, including the light load/steady cruise areas. Keep in mind that our maps are developed using different modes for light load/cruise area and for upper RPM full throttle performance. We have seen excellent results on the these bikes and with these mods you will see substantial performance and cooling which will increase your riding enjoyment. I hope this has helped with any questions.
Thank you.......Jamie
Because of the large amount of questions I receive about the O2 sensors and all of the incorrect information we have seen on the Harley EFI, I will further explain how the closed loop EFI system works on the Harley Delphi system and why Dynojet has developed the Power Commander with O2 sensor eliminators. First I will start by explaining how the narrowband O2 sensor works. Keep in mind the O2 sensor is only one of the many sensors which monitors engine functions in the speed density system and with the O2 sensor eliminators installed. Your EFI system will continue to constantly adjust for changing conditions as you ride such as temperature, altitude, humidity, etc.. based on the ECM's programming and lookup tables which are very accurate at providing the proper fuel and ignition timing requirements for the stock components (although the calibrations are very lean which is why we are tuning in the first place). The O2 sensors are not used to calculate fuel requirements, it is simply a feedback device to ensure the air fuel ratio in the cruse areas is within EPA requirements to maintain a 14.7:1 A/F ratio. The narrowband O2 sensor can only accurately measure a small area within 14.7:1 stoichiometric air/fuel ratio range and works by providing a voltage signal to the ECM which then will continuously monitor the stoichiometric mid point crossover and adjust accordingly until the A/F is in the 14.7:1 range. The ECM is only using the O2 sensor feedback signal when the system is in closed loop mode. Closed loop mode occurs only under certain conditions which are light load, steady speed part throttle, constant mode below approx 40% throttle. It is only after these conditions that the will EFI go into closed loop mode and the ECM will adjust until the O2 crossover point is in the 14.7:1 A/F range. Simply put, a narrowband O2 sensor only works for adjusting low load/cruise area and does not work well in performance applications because it can only monitor a small area within the stoichiometric A/F range. With that being said, yes the stock EFI can adjust itself on these Harley models. That is if you consider the small amount of time it is in closed loop, and then when the ECM is able to adjust A/F it can only adjust it within the 14.7:1 range which is WAY too lean. For reasonable performance and drivability this 14.7:1 A/F is extremely lean and this is the reason for the 07-08 bikes to run very hot with poor drivability. This condition gets even worse when you change your exhaust or air cleaner. Optimum A/F ratio for cruise area is 13.4-13.8:1 and 12.8-13.2:1 for wide open throttle. When you install an aftermarket EFI module (regardless of manufacturer) for the ability to tune below 40% throttle you will need to utilize O2 sensor eliminators. This will prevent the EFI from going into closed loop mode and you will be able to tune to an optimum A/F ratio for the bike to run properly, otherwise the stock O2 sensors and closed loop mode will try to lean the mixture within the 14.7:1 range. Even with the Harley Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in which you can retain the O2 sensors, again you can still only work within the stoichiometric range which is the only voltage the O2 sensors can measure. Dynojet certainly has the technology to develop a Power Commander for the Harley models with a Wideband sensor that replaces the stock O2 sensor which would be able to tune in real time to target A/F ratios, Power modes etc. although with the relatively simple design of the Harley/Delphi injection the current Power Commander USB is more than capable of adjusting what we need to adjust at the moment. Keep in mind in Japanese applications the Power Commander is widely used as well in EFI systems that are far more complex than the Harley Delphi system with technology such as Dual ECU's, computer controlled secondary throttle blades, multiple staged injectors for each cylinder, fly by wire throttle and servo operated variable intake length. From our experience tuning bikes everyday we know the Power Commander is the best EFI module available and works like no other to effectively adjust the EFI in the full range of RPM's and throttle positions, including the light load/steady cruise areas. Keep in mind that our maps are developed using different modes for light load/cruise area and for upper RPM full throttle performance. We have seen excellent results on the these bikes and with these mods you will see substantial performance and cooling which will increase your riding enjoyment. I hope this has helped with any questions.
Thank you.......Jamie
The following users liked this post:
splattttttt (11-06-2017)