IF your numbers are real, I like them a lot. But, as I have just proven, we can't really trust dyno numbers, can we. I hope you really have what the dyno sheet evidently told you you have. And if you do, your cams MIGHT be better than mine, but, it could instead be the exhaust that's better then mine. I say that because my exhaust seems to be producing good power at very low rpm, so may be fighting the cams at high rpm.

Now that I see that I can't count on dyno results to tell me reliably what I need to know, I have no idea how to accurately and safely test any other exhaust, and I also don't think I want to spend the money for another tune to adapt the injection system to the new exhaust, only to possibly find out I get worse results, not better.

It ain't over yet, but I don't have a good plan to figure this out yet.

Jim G

 

Out of curiosity, I just looked up the specs on those Woods 777 cams. VERY interesting:

The 777 cam have duration of 244 intake / 244 exhaust, which is remarkably similar to the 240 / 250 on my 259 cams.

The 777 cams have overlap of 42 degrees, which is significantly MORE aggressive than the overlap on my 259 cams.

The lift is 0.575, which is very similar to the .579 on my 259 cams.

In fact, the Fuel Moto website Woods cam page describes the LESS aggressive Woods 555 as "ultra high performance", and describes the 777 as "555 on steroids"! (Their words, not mine)

In fact, ONLY the Woods 888 is more aggressive, with cam durations of 246/246 but no more valve lift!

What's even more fascinating though is that the dyno chart on that Fuel Moto page for the 777 has numbers remarkably like the one ntraindavefl has posted, so I suspect he has "believed" the Fuel Moto dyno chart and is throwing those "manufacturer claim" numbers out here as "fact". My lengthy posting above proves that manufacturer claims for at least the two manufacturers whose data I analyzed (HD and Ultima) are sheer fantasy.

Here's the link to that Fuel Moto page, so anyone can see for themselves what I am saying here:
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/performance-cams.html

I did learn something interesting from those Fuel Moto charts though: The 777 cam, which the specs above so is not that different from my HD 259 cam, posted a completely different shape of dyno chart, that did indeed emphasize low and mid range torque, with torque peaking at just 3700 rpm, EVEN WITH THE FUEL MOTO LEVEL B HEADS. Looking at the specs for that engine in their chart, I see one significant difference from what I have done: they used a Bassani B1 Road Rage exhaust.

I am not familiar at all with that exhaust, so will have to research it, unless someone here can save me the time and tell me about it, and what its performance characteristics tend to be.

As I have said earlier, I need to understand exhausts better to optimize what I have in my engine now.

Jim G

 

Jim IMO and all BS aside, you've got one of the best performing (bottom end and top end) exhausts on the market. Very tunable and very well behaved and good tuners like them. I personally don't think the issues are your exhaust at all and in fact I would lean more towards the tuning of your bike than anything and with the parts you have installed you should be getting more; I believe that. If I were in your shoes and knowing what I know (which ain't much by the way) about the way Harley tuners tune (or are required to tune), I would either ride that bike up to Steve @ GMR in Fort Worth or Ed @ Dyno Difference in Dallas and get a good, proper tune.

 

I could understand the tune being "bad" if the AFRs were varying across the rpm band, but Is it even possible for a tune to "be bad" when the AFRs across the rpm range are right at or near ideal? Can one of the tuners on the forum here explain how that occurs?

Jim G

 

Although part of it, and you know this as you seem educated enough about all this, but AFR is only a small portion of a great tune. It has a good part to do with it but you have other factors involved here too such as VE front and rear, timing front and rear, etc. that all play vital roles. IMO your VEs can tell you a lot more than AFR will because it's (in a nutshell) air in to air out ratios and how efficiently that 100+ hp air pump between your legs is working

Can you post up your final map they did for you so we can see it? You'd have to put it on dropbox, or box.com, or something of that nature and share a link to it.

 

UltraNutZ, do you mean the file with the .dto file extension off the SERT?

If so, PM your email address so I can email it to you. I have it on my computer, but have never used Dropbox or box.com. Is it similar to Photobucket.com (which only takes photo formats)?

I really would appreciate the help with figuring this all out.

Jim G

 

Here are the VE tables front and rear, from the SERT:







Note the "dual peaks" for VE at 2000 and at 4500 to 5000 rpm.

Jim G

 

Can't help with the primary; don't believe the parts exist. However, a 30T trans pulley (Andrews and Baker both have offerings I believe) and a 68T wheel pulley will achieve a 10% increase in secondary drive ratio. I believe the owners that have made this change are using a 68T Sportster wheel pulley but I have not made the change so cannot be certain. This change would allow the use of your OEM belt. A wheel pulley cost about the same as a new belt. The speedo fix is pretty simple; Dakota Digital offers a piece of hardware that will allow you to correct the speedo.

I am not saying the modification is cheap. If you have to have the dealer make the change, you are probably looking at $1000-$1200 depening on shop rate.

The '09 up models are geared way too tall IMHO; I think you would really like the results of the gearing change with your current setup.

 

yeah shoot it to me.. ultranutz at outlook dot com

I'll post it up for you. Scott may be able to enlighten us as well..

 

I have an extra restriction on that final driver change: I bought the Turbine chrome wheels with matched brake rotors and rear pulley. That chrome rear pulley with the Turbine pattern only comes in the one size I believe.

If I go from 32T to 30T without also changing the rear pulley, I would get only a 6.7% improvement. IF that swap had a slightly reasonable price tag, I would do it, but I am told I would need a new (shorter) belt besides the 30T pulley, and of course all the shop labor to make the swap (as I explained above, I currently have no garage, no lift, and a gravel / caliche driveway with a 7% slope ).

I'd be willing to spend maybe $500 to $600 for only 6.7%, but spending more than that for only a halfway solution seems pricey.

The more I ride this bike, the more I am convinced though that it really needs the gearing change. Slow speed in-city 90 degree turns are really uncomfortable when you are slipping the clutch, because that greatly magnifies the chances of a rear tire slide.

Jim G