It seems that many laws are intentionally written to be complicated and vague. This allows an opportunity for lawyers to be hired and exploit loopholes!

 

HR 218 http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html otherwise known as the The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 will cover the officers in regards to carrying their handguns. It is a fairly new law 2004 and has not been ran through the courts yet so this will be interesting for leo's if it goes any farther.

One example of how the law is faulted happened in NJ (I'm pretty sure it was NJ). A leo was carrying concealed which is ok under federal law HR 218 but he had hollow points in his firearm which by NJ state law is not allowed. He was convicted because of the hollow points.

Another question is wheter or not dept policy supercedes federal law Case law has said that if you are under contract ie. union then your department policy is considered law which means this bill would supercede department policy. Once again this has not been determined by the courts. When we asked our union back in 2005 they said that currently they don't have an opinion since there has not been any real challenges. Our union is fop which was one of the main advocates for the bill???

Chuck

 

The LEO Safety Act of 2004 (HB 218) also has conditions that must be met by Officers.

Some of the conditions needed to qualify are as follows:

be authorized by the agency to carry a firearm
meet the agency's necessary qualifications to carry a firearm
be in good standing with the agency
not be under the influence of alcohol or drugs
not be prohibited by federal law from carrying a firearm


Speculation can run wild, but I doubt if any of us have the 'inside information' to verify if the Officer was (or was not) in violation of one or more of these conditions.

 

I can understand a need for LEOs to be armed when off duty. They must make a lot of enemies among the bad guys just by doing their jobs.

If this LEO had truly had real problems with HAs in the past, maybe he didn't show the best judgment by going to Sturgis in the first place, and into a bar in the second?

I dunno, the facts aren't all out.

 

I think it's completely fair that he (the officer) will answer for what he did. He has a history of acting contrary to what one generally expects from a peace officer and now he's stepped on it big time. Drinking in a scooter trash bar while packing ... off duty? This has been a long time coming ... it was a matter of time with this guy. He'll get his day in court, in front of a jury of his peers. I can ask for nothing more, whether he walks or not.

 

I was wondering this myself..

Must be like a Rapper using the "N" word whereas verboten for everyone else???

I'm sitting on my hands now for if I post my true feelings will result in this post being locked or my banishment or both.....

 

Harley Davidson Forums > General Harley Davidson Forums > General Harley Davidson Chat
Now we know how it played out at Sturgis
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#1 Today, 07:15 PM
Ironhand
Prospect Join Date: Feb 2006
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Now we know how it played out at Sturgis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Criminal charges have been filed in South Dakota against a Seattle police detective and a Hells Angels member whom the detective shot and wounded in a bar fight during the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, according to a statement issued Thursday by the Meade County State's Attorney's office.

In addition, three other members of a law enforcement-oriented motorcycle club, including a second Seattle police officer and two U.S. Customs agents have been charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit in violation of South Dakota law, according to the statement.

The detective, Ron Smith, 43, has been charged with aggravated assault, perjury and carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. The Hells Angels biker, Joseph McGuire, 33, of Imperial Beach, Calif., was charged with aggravated assault.

The shooting happened Aug. 9 at the Loud American Roadhouse, a crowded bar in Sturgis. The detective, who was with members of the Iron Pigs, a motorcycle club of law enforcement officers, said he was jumped by several Hells Angels members and fired in self defense.

Other Iron Pigs members, including Scott Lazalde, 38; James Rector, 44; and Dennis McCoy, 39, a Seattle police officer; have been charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, according to the statement. Lazalde, of Bellingham, and Rector, of Ferndale, are employed with U.S. Customs. The charges were filed after a grand jury reconvened Wednesday to examine the evidence. Warrants were expected to be issued for the defendants. No court date has been set.

Aggravated assault is punishable under South Dakota law by up to 15 years' imprisonment. Smith and McGuire also were charged in the alternative with misdemeanor assault, which would a give a jury another option should it decide to acquit on the more serious offense
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#2 Today, 07:17 PM
Slaps
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Still need more facts. At least the guy is alive.


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#3 Today, 07:20 PM
Redbeard
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I guess I'll show my ignorance of gun laws, but is a badge not "equal" to a permit?
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#4 Today, 07:23 PM
ae4782tt
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Carefull guys, lets keep it clean and not "Bash" any LEO's or 1% this could be a great discussion if we can keep it clean and within the rules of this forum!


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#5 Today, 07:25 PM
Slaps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeard
I guess I'll show my ignorance of gun laws, but is a badge not "equal" to a permit?

Need a permit to get the badge. At least that is how it works here.


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#6 Today, 07:31 PM
JBaker421
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I don't think that most states recognize concealed permits from other states, not even for LEOs, nor do they allow LEOs from other jurisdictions to carry with the State. At least it's true here.
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#7 Today, 07:44 PM
Ironhand
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

another press release

Seattle cop charged in Sturgis shooting
--ADVERTISEMENT--
(Click ESC to stop the shaking)
BY: Jennifer Sullivan
SD - Several felony charges were filed in South Dakota this morning against a Seattle police officer who shot and wounded a Hells Angels member during a fight inside a Sturgis bar earlier this month.

The Meade County, S.D., State Attorney's Office charged police detective Ronald Smith with aggravated assault, perjury and a misdemeanor count of carrying a concealed pistol without a permit.

Smith had earlier said he shot and wounded Hells Angels member Joseph McGuire after being jumped by several bikers inside the Loud American Roadhouse on Aug. 9 during the annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally. Smith this morning declined to comment on the charges, but said he was hiring an attorney.

An aggravated assault charge was filed against McGuire, 33, of Imperial Beach, Calif.

Misdemeanor charges also were filed against four other members of a motorcycle club called the Iron Pigs, which is made up of police and firefighters. Smith is a member of the club.

If convicted of felony assault, Smith and McGuire could each face up to 15 years in prison and $30,000 fine. If convicted of perjury, Smith faces up to five years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

The other Iron Pig members who were with Smith in Sturgis were each charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. They include: Scott Lazalde, 38, of Bellingham; James Rector, 44, of Ferndale, Whatcom County; Erik Pingel, 35, of Aurora, Colo.; and Seattle police Sgt. Dennis McCoy, 49, of Seattle. Lazalde and Rector are members of U.S. Customs and Border Inspection in Blaine.

A conviction on the misdemeanor could result in up to one year in a county jail and a $2,000 fine.

While Seattle police have long had a policy of firing officers charged with a felony, department spokesman Jeff Kappel issued a statement this morning that read, "the department continues to gather and receive information, the officers will remain on administrative leave."

Smith and McCoy, who were both inside the bar when the shooting happened, as well as and several other Seattle police officers who traveled to the motorcycle rally are on administrative leave, the authorities said.

Smith, 43, said he has belonged to the Seattle chapter of the Iron Pigs since it was founded several years ago. He said he and other officers were in Sturgis attending the famed annual motorcycle rally there.

Meade County State Attorney Jesse Sondreal said in the news release that 10 witnesses testified Wednesday before a grand jury. Another 25, including Smith, testified on Aug. 10.

Sondreal said in an e-mail this morning that the grand jury found that Smith lied while testifying before them the day after the shooting.

"The grand jury must've decided that Mr. Smith, having taken an oath to testify truly, in a state proceeding, stated intentionally and contrary to the oath, a material matter which he knew to be false," Sondreal wrote.

Smith, who has said he may have been targeted by the motorcycle gang, testified in a high-profile federal racketeering and murder trial last year that sent several former and current members of the Hells Angels to prison. All four defendants in the case went to prison - for terms ranging from seven years to life without parole - for convictions on conspiracy and racketeering charges.

Court records and police testimony show that the detective has clashed with another Hells Angels member before.

Smith filed charges in 2005, alleging that Anthony James Magnesi, a member of the Washington Nomads chapter of the Hells Angels, had threatened him over the phone.

Magnesi, in turn, recorded one of their phone conversations and gave it to the police department's Office of Professional Accountability (OPA), claiming it was Smith who had threatened him.

An internal investigation was opened, and the incident was referred to Smith's supervisor as a training issue, according to OPA officials.

The misdemeanor criminal charges filed by Smith against Magnesi were dismissed.
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#8 Today, 08:26 PM
Glyde
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Guns and booze just don't mix.
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#9 Today, 08:41 PM
ae4782tt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBaker421
I don't think that most states recognize concealed permits from other states, not even for LEOs, nor do they allow LEOs from other jurisdictions to carry with the State. At least it's true here.

In NC there are 26 states that have "reciprocity" laws. This means having a permit in NC allows you to carry in these states. Here is a link to those states.
http://www.ncdoj.com/DocumentStreame...stofstates.pdf
They are also very specific regulations where you can't carry. Ex: Any place serving alcohol, any place that charges an admission among others. The main reason I do not carry more frequently than I do is because of those laws. Also carrying a gun comes with a lot of responsibility. You gotta be willing and have the mindset NOT to be a loudmouth badass, and be willing to walk away from an arguement. Its better to get yer *** kicked than to shoot some drunk cuz he is getting the best of you in a fight!


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#10 Today, 08:46 PM
Ridewva
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glyde
Guns and booze just don't mix.

Exactly.

When I was taking a class to get my carry, one of the things taught was where to *not* ever carry. First on the list was a bar. Police in a bar in the line of duty? No problem. Off duty, out of state police in a bar indulging in alcohol? No way!
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Right! No One can carry in a bar unless on duty leo or the owner or authorized employee of the bar. Sounds to me like a bunch of ******** will pay the price now.

 

That's not superceding the Federal Law, they can't. They can tell the officers they can't carry out of state, and if they do they are in violation of dept policy, but not in violation of the law. The law gives all sworn police and those retired in good standing (ie...me) the right to carry concealed in all 50 states. If the prosecutor charged sworn officers, either Federal or local, with carrying concealed, then he's a tool, and wasting taxpayer money on charges he can't convict on. Now if some of the others are firemen like was eluded to, then those guys are probably hosed. Of course this has nothing to do with the assault charges, but the firearms violations will not fly....the law is pretty clear. I even let my state CCW lapse after Bush signed the Fed law into effect, as I don't need it anymore.

 

This is probably one of the most important points in the discussion. If the officers involved were under the influence of alcohol, then they disqualified themselves from carry authority under the LEO Safety Act. It would seem then that they are not "covered" in terms of their carry authority, and would be subject to local and state ordinances.

The Feds may have a different out altogether. If they're designated as Series 1811 Federal Agents, then they have a 24/7 carry authority throughout the United States. ICE may do something to them administratively for failure to follow departmental carry restrictions, but it's unlikely they could be criminally charged, especially as they didn't fire a shot.

 

Finally, somebody that understands the law a little. I'm a retired LEO and I'm covered under this law. I had to take a class in order to continue carrying after my retirement. I have to qualify every year and I can't carry in Federal Buildings or Airports. Being intoxicated would violate the law meant to protect the LEO.