Kinda failed MSF course - need help
#31
07-23-2011, 10:21 PM
Thanks everyone...
Wow very interesting posts. I should have posted my personal bio for a change - I am 6 feet 1.5 inches, male and 32 years old.
The weather was too much for me - I will definitely try to take the course again when the weather gets little cooler. My co-worker who has a bike, will let me practice friction zone at the parking lot (just spoke to him prior to this post).
I was in this MSF Yamaha Bike 250 CC probably (I do not own a bike)- I swear I was having a hard time finding the FZ with the clutch, and my co-ordination needs to be better. I know I was struggling more than the rest of the class, and right there I knew, that I need to get better at this or there is no way I will be able to go on the road. It also was my first time ever being on a bike as an operator - it was such a new experience.
I did not have any balance issues during the course - never dropped the bike in class - especially when I got the bike in 2nd gear - riding was fun (I was only going in big circles).
But at the end of the day I need to master FZ and need to be relaxed at the course. My instructor knew that I was an engineer by profession and told me that I was over-thinking too much when riding.
Well there is always next time - I will keep on trying till I succeed.
Thanks everyone
Wow very interesting posts. I should have posted my personal bio for a change - I am 6 feet 1.5 inches, male and 32 years old.
The weather was too much for me - I will definitely try to take the course again when the weather gets little cooler. My co-worker who has a bike, will let me practice friction zone at the parking lot (just spoke to him prior to this post).
I was in this MSF Yamaha Bike 250 CC probably (I do not own a bike)- I swear I was having a hard time finding the FZ with the clutch, and my co-ordination needs to be better. I know I was struggling more than the rest of the class, and right there I knew, that I need to get better at this or there is no way I will be able to go on the road. It also was my first time ever being on a bike as an operator - it was such a new experience.
I did not have any balance issues during the course - never dropped the bike in class - especially when I got the bike in 2nd gear - riding was fun (I was only going in big circles).
But at the end of the day I need to master FZ and need to be relaxed at the course. My instructor knew that I was an engineer by profession and told me that I was over-thinking too much when riding.
Well there is always next time - I will keep on trying till I succeed.
Thanks everyone
Sounds like you had a good Instructor and since he was a) there, and b) trained to Instruct new riders...I strongly suggest you focus on what he said about your performance and avoid confusing the matter by asking other's what they think. I include yours truly in this, even as an MSF/RidersEdge Instructor myself.
So, despite all that I'm getting ready to type
, my best advice is to resist the temptation to seek out and listen to the advice of strangers...well-meaning as we all may be. 
Not only will you get over-loaded...you may get advice that is not "good".
I see you're still reading...so I'll throw in some thoughts I had when I read your post...
1) HEAT - The heat can be and often is a big issue for many. 104F is ROUGH! Esp on the range in jeans/boots/ls shirt/gloves and helmet. Despite attempts to drink plenty of water, it really is next to impossible to get in enough while out on the range in the types of temps you encountered. I'm in Texas and am pretty much well-versed in HEAT.
Dehydration causes fatigue which affects your focus and motor-skills. I've witnessed students "skills" plummet as the day wears on and one particular class that comes to mind (107F), I am confident the heat caused a couple of people to "fail" due to above reasons.
2) Ride Like a Pro DVD - Sorry fellas...gotta go against the grain in this situation. Despite what the many well-meaning bikers here may feel...the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD (FWIW, I'm a "fan" and have watched the videos and practiced the exercises numerous times AND took the class) is fantastic, but not for novices. Yes...it may be chock full of great info, but IMHO, it's just too advanced for the beginner/novice so I wouldn't recommend it until you have a better command of the basic controls. Personally, I feel keeping it simple (think MSF Beginner's class) is what is I would recommend it to you at this point. This is just my opinion, mind you...again, the RLAP course/DVD is excellent, but not so much for the beginner. This is my opinion and comes from going through both the MSF and Rider's Edge Instructor Training and having a better understanding about the why's and where-for's of the MSF curriculum and adult learning.
3) The Friction Zone - the big kahuna! This is what really jumped out at me...bottom line is, you need to have command of the friction zone to succeed in the MSF class. It's pretty much the foundation and all the other exercises are built on it. More often than not...students who don't get a command of it, often are the one's dropping the bikes and/or don't pass the class. There is a reason why it's taught/practiced from exercise 2 on (ex 1 is bike familiarization...no riding). It's super important. Once you "get it", you're whole class experience will change.
4) Front braking - not gonna harp here, but this is a big one as I know you know. As important as it is...the FZ is more important to master as a learning block.
So, get that friction zone thing down then work on what you're other hand and feet are doing. I think you'll find that you'll improve on this with time/practice/experience anyway (hopefully, not after kissing the pavement as a result of front-braking in a curve) and in time, braking and shifting becomes 2nd nature.
Bottom line...my suggestion is to re-take the class when the weather is more tolerable. I have a feeling you'll sail through with flying colors. It's not uncommon for 2nd timers to be among the "best" riders in the class. Since you're not "scared" away and are eager to get back on the horse, I would guess you are not in the category of those who simply find out motorcycles are not for them, but rather one who, for whatever reason (test anxiety, learning style/pace, heat, mind elsewhere due to other life events, etc) just didn't get it done in one very fast-paced weekend...no harm no foul!!!
Good luck and come back and let us know when you pass!!
p.s...not sure I am on board with the "practice" advice simply because the mc you may use may be too big/powerful/$$ for a learner on top of how you'd get it to a parking lot safely/legally and who would be giving you advice...keep in mind, crash statistics do not favor those taught by a friend/family member. Not saying not to practice...just not real sure about this w/o more info....
So, despite all that I'm getting ready to type
, my best advice is to resist the temptation to seek out and listen to the advice of strangers...well-meaning as we all may be. Not only will you get over-loaded...you may get advice that is not "good".I see you're still reading...so I'll throw in some thoughts I had when I read your post...
1) HEAT - The heat can be and often is a big issue for many. 104F is ROUGH! Esp on the range in jeans/boots/ls shirt/gloves and helmet. Despite attempts to drink plenty of water, it really is next to impossible to get in enough while out on the range in the types of temps you encountered. I'm in Texas and am pretty much well-versed in HEAT.
Dehydration causes fatigue which affects your focus and motor-skills. I've witnessed students "skills" plummet as the day wears on and one particular class that comes to mind (107F), I am confident the heat caused a couple of people to "fail" due to above reasons.
2) Ride Like a Pro DVD - Sorry fellas...gotta go against the grain in this situation. Despite what the many well-meaning bikers here may feel...the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD (FWIW, I'm a "fan" and have watched the videos and practiced the exercises numerous times AND took the class) is fantastic, but not for novices. Yes...it may be chock full of great info, but IMHO, it's just too advanced for the beginner/novice so I wouldn't recommend it until you have a better command of the basic controls. Personally, I feel keeping it simple (think MSF Beginner's class) is what is I would recommend it to you at this point. This is just my opinion, mind you...again, the RLAP course/DVD is excellent, but not so much for the beginner. This is my opinion and comes from going through both the MSF and Rider's Edge Instructor Training and having a better understanding about the why's and where-for's of the MSF curriculum and adult learning.
3) The Friction Zone - the big kahuna! This is what really jumped out at me...bottom line is, you need to have command of the friction zone to succeed in the MSF class. It's pretty much the foundation and all the other exercises are built on it. More often than not...students who don't get a command of it, often are the one's dropping the bikes and/or don't pass the class. There is a reason why it's taught/practiced from exercise 2 on (ex 1 is bike familiarization...no riding). It's super important. Once you "get it", you're whole class experience will change.
4) Front braking - not gonna harp here, but this is a big one as I know you know. As important as it is...the FZ is more important to master as a learning block.
So, get that friction zone thing down then work on what you're other hand and feet are doing. I think you'll find that you'll improve on this with time/practice/experience anyway (hopefully, not after kissing the pavement as a result of front-braking in a curve) and in time, braking and shifting becomes 2nd nature.
Bottom line...my suggestion is to re-take the class when the weather is more tolerable. I have a feeling you'll sail through with flying colors. It's not uncommon for 2nd timers to be among the "best" riders in the class. Since you're not "scared" away and are eager to get back on the horse, I would guess you are not in the category of those who simply find out motorcycles are not for them, but rather one who, for whatever reason (test anxiety, learning style/pace, heat, mind elsewhere due to other life events, etc) just didn't get it done in one very fast-paced weekend...no harm no foul!!!
Good luck and come back and let us know when you pass!!
p.s...not sure I am on board with the "practice" advice simply because the mc you may use may be too big/powerful/$$ for a learner on top of how you'd get it to a parking lot safely/legally and who would be giving you advice...keep in mind, crash statistics do not favor those taught by a friend/family member. Not saying not to practice...just not real sure about this w/o more info....
#32
07-23-2011, 10:38 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
Sir, I am not trying to berate you or put you down in anyway, but if you cannot complete the MSF course you should not be riding on the street with a motorcycle. The course is in itself the easiest course to pass and is BASIC motorcycle handling. You need to practice off road or in parking lots. Again I am not trying to demean you in any way, I just don't want to see you get injured. I have taught many people to ride to include being a Police Motorcycle Instructor and some people just are not able to gain the ability to ride a Motor Cycle safely. Please look at it with an objective mind. Try the course again and if you still cannot get through it, consider getting another hobby and live another day.
#33
07-23-2011, 10:51 PM
The heat would definitely bother me as would a scooter that I was not familiar with. I took the advanced course and passed after which I was able to use the parking lot where the class took place to practice and improve my skills. I still like to go to the class site and go through the slow speed maneuvers.
#34
07-23-2011, 10:53 PM
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Hi,
I was very excited to ride a bike at the MSF course today (I even passed the written exam easily)...but during the day's training, near the end, I just could not keep up with the controls (temp was brutal - 104 F...kept drinking lot of water, but my clothes were drenched in sweat).
I didn't realize how tough this is...my Instructor was awesome, and he gave an honest assessment about my performance.
I can't get to ride the bike properly using 'Friction Zone' (riding in first gear is tough initially, and got my bike engine shut off so many times). Changing gears was definitely an issue...but more importantly - I keep using the front brakes, and not enabling foot brake with front brake together.
The heat was definitely killing me...but what can I do to prepare myself before I retake the MSF course again?
I am based in Arlington, VA -
Help, tips, advice are greatly appreciated....I do not want to fail next time. I can't give up
I was very excited to ride a bike at the MSF course today (I even passed the written exam easily)...but during the day's training, near the end, I just could not keep up with the controls (temp was brutal - 104 F...kept drinking lot of water, but my clothes were drenched in sweat).
I didn't realize how tough this is...my Instructor was awesome, and he gave an honest assessment about my performance.
I can't get to ride the bike properly using 'Friction Zone' (riding in first gear is tough initially, and got my bike engine shut off so many times). Changing gears was definitely an issue...but more importantly - I keep using the front brakes, and not enabling foot brake with front brake together.
The heat was definitely killing me...but what can I do to prepare myself before I retake the MSF course again?
I am based in Arlington, VA -
Help, tips, advice are greatly appreciated....I do not want to fail next time. I can't give up
Once again I say this with the up most respect but I will be frank and to the point. You have major coordination skills problems. I know 2 other people that has the same problems you described. The first I talked out of riding a motorcycle. The second rides and has over come the problem to a degree he can ride safely on country roads only but he still gets in trouble when he should not. The trouble I am talking about is he gets hurt and messes up his motorcycle several times. If he road on major highways he could easily be killed or kill someone.
With that being said I am recommending you do not ride a motorcycle. There is no sin or shame in this. Not everyone should ride a motorcycle. I rather see you safe and alive than dead.
Everyone has their limits. To show you I will expose a simple one of mine. Typing on this computer and talking will not ever happen. I can not do both. Riding my motorcycle on a curve and talking I can not do. I can work physically and talk but I can not do curves or type and talk. If a job requires talking and typing I can not do the job. No shame just not a job I can do.
Pick another hobby other than riding a motorcycle please. I don't want you hurt.
Last edited by csbreeze; 07-23-2011 at 10:57 PM.
#35
07-23-2011, 11:56 PM
Tourer
I mean this with the up most respect. Has anyone ever tried to help you ride a motorcycle? Was the MSR a 2 day riding event? If yes to the first question thats not good. If yes to the 2nd question that is really bad.
Once again I say this with the up most respect but I will be frank and to the point. You have major coordination skills problems. I know 2 other people that has the same problems you described. The first I talked out of riding a motorcycle. The second rides and has over come the problem to a degree he can ride safely on country roads only but he still gets in trouble when he should not. The trouble I am talking about is he gets hurt and messes up his motorcycle several times. If he road on major highways he could easily be killed or kill someone.
With that being said I am recommending you do not ride a motorcycle. There is no sin or shame in this. Not everyone should ride a motorcycle. I rather see you safe and alive than dead.
Everyone has their limits. To show you I will expose a simple one of mine. Typing on this computer and talking will not ever happen. I can not do both. Riding my motorcycle on a curve and talking I can not do. I can work physically and talk but I can not do curves or type and talk. If a job requires talking and typing I can not do the job. No shame just not a job I can do.
Pick another hobby other than riding a motorcycle please. I don't want you hurt.
Once again I say this with the up most respect but I will be frank and to the point. You have major coordination skills problems. I know 2 other people that has the same problems you described. The first I talked out of riding a motorcycle. The second rides and has over come the problem to a degree he can ride safely on country roads only but he still gets in trouble when he should not. The trouble I am talking about is he gets hurt and messes up his motorcycle several times. If he road on major highways he could easily be killed or kill someone.
With that being said I am recommending you do not ride a motorcycle. There is no sin or shame in this. Not everyone should ride a motorcycle. I rather see you safe and alive than dead.
Everyone has their limits. To show you I will expose a simple one of mine. Typing on this computer and talking will not ever happen. I can not do both. Riding my motorcycle on a curve and talking I can not do. I can work physically and talk but I can not do curves or type and talk. If a job requires talking and typing I can not do the job. No shame just not a job I can do.
Pick another hobby other than riding a motorcycle please. I don't want you hurt.
anyway...
I sincerely believe that anyone who wants to and has the required equipment (enough usable limbs and a pulse) can learn to ride a bike. I will echo everyone else...PRACTICE!
I second one of the other posters who recommended a dirt bike. You could even rent one. Go find an open field, bring along a friend who rides to help you out and take your time learning. The stakes aren't nearly as high off-road, you would likely still get hurt worse dropping it in a parking lot than you would in the dirt.
Taking the MSF course as your first time ever on a bike might have been just setting yourself up for failure. Yeah, it's a pretty easy course if you've got at least a little background in riding, but with none, I could see how things would start to happen pretty quickly. If I were in your position I would spend some time learning (multiple months) and try again in the spring, with some seat time, it will all be a bit easier.
#36
07-24-2011, 12:11 AM
Ultimate HDF Member
Kinda failed? Is that what you meant to say? Kinda failed could translate to kinda got killed on a bike.
To those that are knocking the posts saying maybe he shouldn't ride I'd like to give some real life experience.
I have a son that is a master on the bike. Dirt or street. He takes to it like a fish to water.
I have another son that will never ride a bike. He just doesn't have the ability. He plays a piano like you wouldn't believe. He taught himself how to write music when he was 10. He learned sign language on his own. He's very intelligent but will never be a biker. It just isn't in his nature. And we did try. He won't do it. Can't do it.
Some have got it naturally. First son. A lot can learn it. I'm sure that describes many here on the forum. Some will not and should not ever throw a leg over a bike. Second son.
To the OP. Go back to your instructor and have a heart to heart talk with him about your abilities. He should be able to give you the best answer as to whether you should continue riding or not.
To those that are knocking the posts saying maybe he shouldn't ride I'd like to give some real life experience.
I have a son that is a master on the bike. Dirt or street. He takes to it like a fish to water.
I have another son that will never ride a bike. He just doesn't have the ability. He plays a piano like you wouldn't believe. He taught himself how to write music when he was 10. He learned sign language on his own. He's very intelligent but will never be a biker. It just isn't in his nature. And we did try. He won't do it. Can't do it.
Some have got it naturally. First son. A lot can learn it. I'm sure that describes many here on the forum. Some will not and should not ever throw a leg over a bike. Second son.
To the OP. Go back to your instructor and have a heart to heart talk with him about your abilities. He should be able to give you the best answer as to whether you should continue riding or not.
#37
07-24-2011, 12:36 AM
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The reason why I posted such a negative post on riding for him is this. I know people that for a fact should not ride and don't to their credit. I know one guy that tell the other guys "If I fall please pick me up". He scares us to death because he falls often. His bike is beat up from the falls. It was a nice bike. We all pray and hope he doesn't get killed with it.
The MSF course I took in 2006 was GREAT. Unless his instructor was a real bad instructor I find it scarey he failed. People that never sat on a bike was riding great after 2 days. People at the beginning of the class that couldn't keep it balanced well at all was riding like a champ except for 1 kid. We as a class went to the instructor and asked him to fail the kid because he was going to kill himself. He could not be helped even with 1 on 1 guidance by the instructor. The instructor wanted to fail him but couldn't because he didn't drop the bike. He almost dropped the bike but saved it at the last sec.
There is no shame if he doesn't ride. I find it alarming that he failed no matter what the temperature was. We ride in hot temps don't we?
He may have an IQ as big as Albert Einstein far as we know. Einstein was so smart he could not drive a car with out wrecking it. The smarter you are the harder the task is to drive a car much less a motorcycle.
In the words of an old rider ... "Is that motorcycle worth your life". "It could kill you". I told him it was and he smiled and said, "Your a motorcycle rider then because you have it in your blood".
I put doubt in his mind and I feel that was a good thing. I don't know the original poster but I do know a person should know its not worth your life if you can not master the basic skills. There is no shame if you can not master the skills. There are many things in life I can not do that many on this board can. Not everyone can do or be the same thing.
If he continues on his own and masters the skills then lets ride. If he does not master them I rather see him safe and happy. Once again there is NO SHAME if he finds his skill sets do not allow him to ride safely.
When on a motorcycle the only help you got is yourself.
The MSF course I took in 2006 was GREAT. Unless his instructor was a real bad instructor I find it scarey he failed. People that never sat on a bike was riding great after 2 days. People at the beginning of the class that couldn't keep it balanced well at all was riding like a champ except for 1 kid. We as a class went to the instructor and asked him to fail the kid because he was going to kill himself. He could not be helped even with 1 on 1 guidance by the instructor. The instructor wanted to fail him but couldn't because he didn't drop the bike. He almost dropped the bike but saved it at the last sec.
There is no shame if he doesn't ride. I find it alarming that he failed no matter what the temperature was. We ride in hot temps don't we?
He may have an IQ as big as Albert Einstein far as we know. Einstein was so smart he could not drive a car with out wrecking it. The smarter you are the harder the task is to drive a car much less a motorcycle.
In the words of an old rider ... "Is that motorcycle worth your life". "It could kill you". I told him it was and he smiled and said, "Your a motorcycle rider then because you have it in your blood".
I put doubt in his mind and I feel that was a good thing. I don't know the original poster but I do know a person should know its not worth your life if you can not master the basic skills. There is no shame if you can not master the skills. There are many things in life I can not do that many on this board can. Not everyone can do or be the same thing.
If he continues on his own and masters the skills then lets ride. If he does not master them I rather see him safe and happy. Once again there is NO SHAME if he finds his skill sets do not allow him to ride safely.
When on a motorcycle the only help you got is yourself.
#38
07-24-2011, 12:42 AM
There's more to riding than zigzaging around pylons in a parking lot. I don't get the premise of the MSF course. They teach a guy how to ride in a parking lot then he thinks he knows how to ride, since he passed the course and goes and hits a guard rail on an off ramp from the freeway, or drives off the road on a windy road because he never learned to ride on a highway.
#39
07-24-2011, 12:42 AM
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The above is the best advice. Tell your instructor to be truthful and don't hold any punches. If he says your lazy and you didn't listen then SHAME ON YOU. If he tells you he doesn't want you to ride there you go.
I know instructors and I never seen one that was against anyone passing their class. I have seen them wishing they could fail someone for fear of them loosing their lives.
Riding a motorcycle is fun to some and deadly to others.
#40
07-24-2011, 01:04 AM
Banned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z05hiqpABj0
I don't know if the above video helps at all, but maybe check out other videos on You Tube.
Fwiw, I would say you need more practical experience before taking the course again. To be honest, I had no idea what "friction zone" even was until I did a search. If you are having trouble with FZ - you need more time in the saddle - pure and simple. I like the dirt bike advice personally. No cars to run you over and dirt doesn't hurt as much to fall in. Also, traction loss occurs at lower speeds, but the concept translates to pavement and higher speeds.
I admire your willingness to self evaluate as well as throw it out there for us to critique (which is not necessarily beneficial - it is the internet after all - bad advice abounds). It shows that you are responsible and, imo, a good candidate to be a rider, at least in mentality. If you are meant to ride, you will.. And you are the person to know whether or not that is a realistic goal.
Plus I would not be at my best at 104 degrees either. Sounds brutal!
Good Luck!
I don't know if the above video helps at all, but maybe check out other videos on You Tube.
Fwiw, I would say you need more practical experience before taking the course again. To be honest, I had no idea what "friction zone" even was until I did a search. If you are having trouble with FZ - you need more time in the saddle - pure and simple. I like the dirt bike advice personally. No cars to run you over and dirt doesn't hurt as much to fall in. Also, traction loss occurs at lower speeds, but the concept translates to pavement and higher speeds.
I admire your willingness to self evaluate as well as throw it out there for us to critique (which is not necessarily beneficial - it is the internet after all - bad advice abounds). It shows that you are responsible and, imo, a good candidate to be a rider, at least in mentality. If you are meant to ride, you will.. And you are the person to know whether or not that is a realistic goal.
Plus I would not be at my best at 104 degrees either. Sounds brutal!
Good Luck!