Do I NEED an FP3?
#11
11-30-2018, 02:00 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
I have taken too many of these off to find this statement to be true. I literally use them for door stops.
I would ask the people that have answered to this topic a couple of question. It is stated that this device will cool down the engine. How? Does it allow you to target different air fuel ratio's? Does it do this with timing? Is it just the cooling that comes along with a stage 1 and the removal of cats. Is this felt heat off the engine or is this actually being seen in the data with engine and head temps?
Another one I am real intrigued with. Why don't professional tuners recommend this tuning device? Why would their opinion be blown off with this subject? Why would their day in and day out experience and knowledge acquired not be heeded on this subject?
To paraphrase an old school tuning professional. The best you have is the best you know but not necessary the best.
I would ask the people that have answered to this topic a couple of question. It is stated that this device will cool down the engine. How? Does it allow you to target different air fuel ratio's? Does it do this with timing? Is it just the cooling that comes along with a stage 1 and the removal of cats. Is this felt heat off the engine or is this actually being seen in the data with engine and head temps?
Another one I am real intrigued with. Why don't professional tuners recommend this tuning device? Why would their opinion be blown off with this subject? Why would their day in and day out experience and knowledge acquired not be heeded on this subject?
To paraphrase an old school tuning professional. The best you have is the best you know but not necessary the best.
The FP3 has an auto tune feature where it maps out the fuel cells and adjusts the air to fuel ratio. This graph chart is displayed and looks similar to any other fuel graph chart. Shows rpm throttle position etc. The reason why professional tuners don’t recommend em is because it doesn’t add $$$ to their pocket!!! Why would anybody who owns a business recommend a product that eliminates the need for them!?!? I’ve seen and know several guys who pay hundreds on a tuner then hundreds to get it dyno tuned. Let’s not kid ourselves most guys who do this aren’t going to the drag strip or the track.... They are going to the bar!!! We are talking about 800+ Pound 70 something HP motorcycles not Ducati Moto GP
Currently I own a 15RGS and a 03 Hayabusa drag bike with Nitrous. Roughly 230 HP when the shot kicks in. Guess which 1 has a dyno tune..... Guess which 1 NEEDS a dyno tune and which 1 has the FP3. My Roadglide runs fine on the FP3. Doesn’t backfire and cruises down the highway just like any other H-D. If I was to do motor work If I wanted to drag race it If I was to wanna brag and show off a number off a dyno chart then YES that’s when I would get it dyno’d. But that ain’t this and this ain’t that......
The following users liked this post:
Rockin C (11-30-2018)
#13
11-30-2018, 03:24 PM
Road Warrior
While it maybe sort of does kinda what it says on the tin (actually mine came in a wee black box that said nowt but never mind) and does indeed have an auto tune feature ...why do V&H say to run a tank or two of fuel through, it the auto tune is (cough) supposed to map out the fuel VE table cells and adjust the air fuel ratio's richen up the AFR table a bit.
And for the record, the PV and TTS also have auto VE table mapping capabilities and can be used DIY without a trip to a tuning shop either. Without a decent computer interface or decent software a tuning shop can't do much with it, unless they whip their phone/tablet out and get their feet up in front of the fire with a supply of pop corn and a couple of six packs.
It is what it is, and each to their own, but it absolutely ain't rocket science, no
oh and 14.7 isn't exactly "extremely" lean either, most vehicles are probably running that at some point on their maps.
anyhoo... like I said, ain't social media great
And for the record, the PV and TTS also have auto VE table mapping capabilities and can be used DIY without a trip to a tuning shop either. Without a decent computer interface or decent software a tuning shop can't do much with it, unless they whip their phone/tablet out and get their feet up in front of the fire with a supply of pop corn and a couple of six packs.
It is what it is, and each to their own, but it absolutely ain't rocket science, no
oh and 14.7 isn't exactly "extremely" lean either, most vehicles are probably running that at some point on their maps.
anyhoo... like I said, ain't social media great
#14
11-30-2018, 06:12 PM
BTW, No, you don't have to worry about different AFR for different fuel with narrow bands. A lambda of 1 is always 450mV. The ECM only know if the sensors are putting out a higher or lower voltage to the target voltage.
#15
12-01-2018, 04:27 AM
Road Warrior
you're right of course but I was trying to leave the rocket science out of it
Mind you, delving in a bit deeper, the FP3 map for a 2015 touring gives you an AFR table to edit ...in AFR, not Lambda ...and it sets the bulk of it to 14.40.
Spot on though, as I recall my experience, auto mapping the VE tables wasn't even close to getting it to run good at all.
Mind you, delving in a bit deeper, the FP3 map for a 2015 touring gives you an AFR table to edit ...in AFR, not Lambda ...and it sets the bulk of it to 14.40.
Spot on though, as I recall my experience, auto mapping the VE tables wasn't even close to getting it to run good at all.
#16
12-01-2018, 08:28 AM
If we wanted to go down the science worm hole. I'd bring up latent heat, and actual volume of fuel needed to change from lambda of 1 to .988. Then we could really see the cooling affect of all this fuel that has to be added. Might not be rocket science and it isn't quantum physics but let's not throw out scientific law completely.
AFR with tuners is just a scaling for human interface. The sensors and ECM only know mV. If the fp3 is showing AFR. I'm sure it is for gasoline. So, you still aren't getting a good representation of what is really going on with the actual fuel we have available in the US. This makes blanket statements on extremely lean even more troublesome, and the reason most deal in lambda.
Example. 14.4 with gasoline would have a switching voltage of 785mV and a lambda of .981. With e10. It would actually be targeting an AFR of 13.98. Lambda and mV staying the same.
IME with dealing with e90 and e95 fuels is that it takes about 30% more volume of this fuel to hit the ratios that are requested. Back to latent heat. Also corn is a natural knock retard agent. IE slower burning. More fuel equals even slower burning. That will equate to less power and responsiveness. The big plus for this is the ability to add more compression and more timing advance. This goes back to my opinion of just addressing VE's isn't a complete tune.
Had a customer with a nice 95 hippo build. He wanted to do a hp shootout at local dealer. He showed up all ready with a secret weapon. He filled his tank with 110 plus. No other changes. He was down about 10hp and was upset. He swung by and I drained his fuel. Put pump gas back into it and made some pulls. Power was right where it was suppose to be. Timing is so important to making power and yet. Rarely talk about by anybody, and nothing I know on the market that state auto tune addresses it.
Can a stock bike improve with a pro tune? Yes. Will a stage 1 run better with a pro tune? Yes. Why? It has more to do with than just richening up the mixture across the board. If that was the case. A pc5 with 2 in every cell would be magic. BWTHDIK
AFR with tuners is just a scaling for human interface. The sensors and ECM only know mV. If the fp3 is showing AFR. I'm sure it is for gasoline. So, you still aren't getting a good representation of what is really going on with the actual fuel we have available in the US. This makes blanket statements on extremely lean even more troublesome, and the reason most deal in lambda.
Example. 14.4 with gasoline would have a switching voltage of 785mV and a lambda of .981. With e10. It would actually be targeting an AFR of 13.98. Lambda and mV staying the same.
IME with dealing with e90 and e95 fuels is that it takes about 30% more volume of this fuel to hit the ratios that are requested. Back to latent heat. Also corn is a natural knock retard agent. IE slower burning. More fuel equals even slower burning. That will equate to less power and responsiveness. The big plus for this is the ability to add more compression and more timing advance. This goes back to my opinion of just addressing VE's isn't a complete tune.
Had a customer with a nice 95 hippo build. He wanted to do a hp shootout at local dealer. He showed up all ready with a secret weapon. He filled his tank with 110 plus. No other changes. He was down about 10hp and was upset. He swung by and I drained his fuel. Put pump gas back into it and made some pulls. Power was right where it was suppose to be. Timing is so important to making power and yet. Rarely talk about by anybody, and nothing I know on the market that state auto tune addresses it.
Can a stock bike improve with a pro tune? Yes. Will a stage 1 run better with a pro tune? Yes. Why? It has more to do with than just richening up the mixture across the board. If that was the case. A pc5 with 2 in every cell would be magic. BWTHDIK
The following users liked this post:
Gordon61 (12-02-2018)
#18
12-01-2018, 02:32 PM
#19
12-01-2018, 06:16 PM
If we wanted to go down the science worm hole. I'd bring up latent heat, and actual volume of fuel needed to change from lambda of 1 to .988. Then we could really see the cooling affect of all this fuel that has to be added. Might not be rocket science and it isn't quantum physics but let's not throw out scientific law completely.
AFR with tuners is just a scaling for human interface. The sensors and ECM only know mV. If the fp3 is showing AFR. I'm sure it is for gasoline. So, you still aren't getting a good representation of what is really going on with the actual fuel we have available in the US. This makes blanket statements on extremely lean even more troublesome, and the reason most deal in lambda.
Example. 14.4 with gasoline would have a switching voltage of 785mV and a lambda of .981. With e10. It would actually be targeting an AFR of 13.98. Lambda and mV staying the same.
IME with dealing with e90 and e95 fuels is that it takes about 30% more volume of this fuel to hit the ratios that are requested. Back to latent heat. Also corn is a natural knock retard agent. IE slower burning. More fuel equals even slower burning. That will equate to less power and responsiveness. The big plus for this is the ability to add more compression and more timing advance. This goes back to my opinion of just addressing VE's isn't a complete tune.
Had a customer with a nice 95 hippo build. He wanted to do a hp shootout at local dealer. He showed up all ready with a secret weapon. He filled his tank with 110 plus. No other changes. He was down about 10hp and was upset. He swung by and I drained his fuel. Put pump gas back into it and made some pulls. Power was right where it was suppose to be. Timing is so important to making power and yet. Rarely talk about by anybody, and nothing I know on the market that state auto tune addresses it.
Can a stock bike improve with a pro tune? Yes. Will a stage 1 run better with a pro tune? Yes. Why? It has more to do with than just richening up the mixture across the board. If that was the case. A pc5 with 2 in every cell would be magic. BWTHDIK
AFR with tuners is just a scaling for human interface. The sensors and ECM only know mV. If the fp3 is showing AFR. I'm sure it is for gasoline. So, you still aren't getting a good representation of what is really going on with the actual fuel we have available in the US. This makes blanket statements on extremely lean even more troublesome, and the reason most deal in lambda.
Example. 14.4 with gasoline would have a switching voltage of 785mV and a lambda of .981. With e10. It would actually be targeting an AFR of 13.98. Lambda and mV staying the same.
IME with dealing with e90 and e95 fuels is that it takes about 30% more volume of this fuel to hit the ratios that are requested. Back to latent heat. Also corn is a natural knock retard agent. IE slower burning. More fuel equals even slower burning. That will equate to less power and responsiveness. The big plus for this is the ability to add more compression and more timing advance. This goes back to my opinion of just addressing VE's isn't a complete tune.
Had a customer with a nice 95 hippo build. He wanted to do a hp shootout at local dealer. He showed up all ready with a secret weapon. He filled his tank with 110 plus. No other changes. He was down about 10hp and was upset. He swung by and I drained his fuel. Put pump gas back into it and made some pulls. Power was right where it was suppose to be. Timing is so important to making power and yet. Rarely talk about by anybody, and nothing I know on the market that state auto tune addresses it.
Can a stock bike improve with a pro tune? Yes. Will a stage 1 run better with a pro tune? Yes. Why? It has more to do with than just richening up the mixture across the board. If that was the case. A pc5 with 2 in every cell would be magic. BWTHDIK
Bottom line is I got one coming -- and I think I'll know better than to venture a seat-of-the-pants verdict on whatever the bike feels/runs like after I push in the canned stock map -- you guys have been clearly up and down the highway too many times.
I'm already planning a stage one that I hope will be cost effective -- must be a hundred used slip-ons out there from folks who like to swap chrome out and a hi-flow K+N filter for the stock air cleaner is $60. So, there'll be that cheap fun experiment to look forwards to w/ a new V+H map to flash. I'm getting the picture that the autotune feature is one to be avoided.
But no matter whether I like it or don't, I really do appreciate all the time spent putting your knowledge here for me to soak up -- thanks to you all.
