OK, a little history on this tune. I had the VE Change down to 2%. The autotuning runs were finished 10/15/12. The tinkering that I am decided to play with the smoothing function to make the graph pretty. From time to time I like to do a few data log runs to see how things are holding up. This was done on 11/12/12. The temps then and now are similar.

Today I took a 50 mile shake down ride to get the oil hot and the fluids moving again. Nope, didn't do any datalogging. Next week the bike goes in for the SE255 cam install. Already have a starting map from Fuel Moto and will begin autotuning all over again. I have a good handle on that as I have been playing with the PV since last April before autotune came around.

Now to jump ahead and pick your brains a bit more, would you begin adjusting the "Change Dilution Effect" tables before the main spark table or when I notice knock retard? The last time I used the CDE was to lesson the valleys present in certain areas of my VE tables. I wrote about this in message #3356. Please take a look at that and tell me if I was on the right track. Thanx...

 

Forget about the graphs and any valleys. Let autotune do its thing. If there's a valley after Autotuning it's because that's what the engine is calling for. Any attempts to change the map just to get a smoother graph is defeating the point of Autotuning.

 

Negative on the MAC. What you can do is create a virtual windows shell and install it there on the MAC.

To get to the gauge features without connection to the bike, simply plug the device into your computer, open the WinPV software, Select Powervision from the toolbar, select Diagnostic/Test Functions, then select Exit PC Link Mode. This disconnects the PV from the computer but leaves the power to the device so you can set your gauges up without being attached to the bike.

 

Delta, At first, I was going to agree with Heatwave. I still do, in a way... pretty does NOT mean squat.

But.. Charge Dilution? Again.. right now I AM a dumbass on PV, but on TTS, this is the EGR tables. What I do... I get a couple tuning runs in and start working the EGR tables after a bit (few runs), WHILE DOING VE runs. This has NOTHING to do with timing, etc. What this DOES have to deal with is reversion in the exhaust system.

Any exhaust system works on 'wave' theory. Sound waves, pressure waves, etc. AND... these pressure waves go in both directions. Our exhausts are NOT like a water hose, only spewing OUT, our exhausts INHALE between firing pulses. The incoming pressure waves bring fresher air back towards the cylinder. This is basically a phenomenon that happens at lower MAP settings, at higher map/RPM, the exhausts end up being closer to a water hose after all. That 'fresher' air will screw with the reading the O2s are taking... much like the 07-08 Y pipes did on touring bikes. The EGR tools kind of bring the peaks down and the valleys up to account for the swing in values the O2s see. "Charge Dilution" says it all.

If you start to work the Charge Dilution Table WHILE doing tuning runs, you can save quite a bit of time. This is because after an EGR adjustment, the VEs will need to be looked after again.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with timing directly. Me? On TTS? I start out with some tuning runs. I make sure I am heading towards the barn and getting the deltas under control. THEN I start working the EGR tables. WHen I like the EGR tables,AND the VE tables, only then will I start on spark. ALso remember for BEST results, you should do a couple of VE/tuning runs AFTER you have adjusted spark to your liking. Different spark will slightly alter the VE amount a teenie bit at times, because the engine can become more efficient in how it uses the air it inhales.

One thing I WILL say, is PV MUST use different graphing for the VE and EGR tables. I have NEVER seen such a spikey graph. HAHA

Can you spin the graphs around with PV to look at the lengths of the valleys, too? A 'top down" look?

Curious. I should be getting my PV next week and will play around with it some, so I can get in my mind how all the various tables match between SEPST, TTS and your PV.

Sigh... Only thing I REALLY don't like so far, with the PV, is one canNOT work a histogram with anything but the display. I talked to DJ at the Cinci Expo, and was told that there will be new Dyno software coming (WinPep8), and with that new software, we, dyno guys, can use the PC monitors to look at this stuff.

Delta? That will be a BIG help for me and the other dyno tuners, which in turn should help YOU guys in the long run.

Another thing... I think HDF should quit with the three super long threads. and have stickies on various topics. That would sure make it easier to find a problem area and read about it.

 

hello,you can use VIRTUALBOX on mac whis windows
sorry i am french......

 

Will the Winpv software work with Windows 8?

 

yep no issues there...

 

I disagree. Timing should to be pulled after each data run, if it's seen on the log. If it pulled 2.5 degrees on a data run then the rider should create a new VE map AND reduce the timing cell appropriately. Then go out and do another data log run. No way I would recommend going out on another run KNOWING the engine is pinging. This does 2 things, it avoids pinging and it allows the VE in the cells where timing was pulled to readjust. On a dyno it's quicker and easier to dial in VE's. On a street tune that engine will be pinging a bunch longer due to the time on the street versus the short time on a dyno.

 

This isn't directed at you but here's my take on it. There are folks that want and like to tinker on their bike themself. There are others that wouldn't dare or care to mess with it. For street tuners either product will produce great results. Both will get a bike 95% tuned and run great. For those that want to spend 300 - 400 bucks on a dyno every time they make a change it may be money well spent. I have used both of the talked about tuners. For the DIY'er type the TTS will not do any better a job than the PV. Nothing that will be felt. I can tune 2 identical bikes, one with the PV and one with brand X. Nobody would be able to say one ran better or worse than the other. Some members keep talking about "pro" versus "DIY'er". Well, guess what? Neither the TTS or the PV will produce a "pro" tune on the street. It just isn't possible. Both can get a bike real close and for 99% of us, that is what we're looking for. So, for someone to keep harping on this "pro" nonsense when 99% of us already know we won't be at 100% tuned is just wasted talk. After using both, the PV beats brand X, hands down, for the DIY'er street tuner. To come in here, and try to compare both units, by making a street versus dyno comparison is like comparing apples to oranges. We are talking about street tunes NOT street tune versus a dyno tune.

Next comes into play the lack of GOOD tuners with either. They just aren't out there. So we can talk about a "pro" tune until we're blue in the face, but a "pro" tune can only be achieved by a tuner that knows how to really tune. So, we have brand X loaded up and take it to get tuned. Tuner does a crappy job. Bike runs like crap. Nothing gained by using brand X. Same could happen with the PV. In the hands of a good tuner brand X will produce excellent results. And, once the PV has been out there a while, I'm sure the same excellent results can be achieved, by someone that knows what they're doing. What I'm getting at is this. Brand X and the PV are only as good as the tuner that's using them.

99% of us are obviously DIY'ers, or we wouldn't be reading this thread. The bottom line is, in the hands of the garage tuner, collecting data on the street, neither of these two units being talked about, outshines the other. Neither will produce a street tune that clearly outshines the other. Both will achieve pretty darn good results on the street, and that's what 99% of us are looking for. Where the PV shines is ease of use, it's ability get a bike tuned quickly, AND the additional bells and whistles that can be used AFTER the bike is tuned.

And yes you're absolutely correct about being locked out of the ECM. That would really suck to be out on the road and have a problem that couldn't be addressed by a dealer, if needed. One could always pack the laptop and dongle I suppose. With the PV I would just do a 3 minute flash, let the dealer do his thing, another 3 minute reflash of my PV tune, and be motoring down the road. I couldn't imagine what the bike with brand X would have to do if the dealer wasn't set up to reflash the OEM map.

 

You could reduce the main table, if you wanted. The idea of the temp tables is to get rid of pinging that is clearly heat related. Let's say on a 70 degree day you get no pinging. Let's also assume you KNOW for a fact that you timing is set up for peak performance. Now you're out riding on a 100 degree day. Your engine pings at a certain rpm and kPa. Do you want to get rid of the ping during 100 degree days AND keep your peak performance during 70 degree days? If so, then play with the temp tables.

Keep in mind, this is really only critical to the performance minded rider that has had his timing table set up by a good tuner. For the street tuner, timing is pretty much a guess by how it feels and whether it's pinging or not. The street tuner will be able to see where and when it pings, but has no clue whether 34, 36, 38, etc makes the best numbers, performance wise. So, it pings at 38 degrees. You drop it to 36 and it stops pinging. Was 38 the peak performance number, or was 36 the peak performance number? Street tuner doesn't know. Dyno tuner does know. Dyno tuner, if he's doing it right, will want you to keep your 70 degree day performance and adjust in the temp table.

The only way a street tuner can really determine which way to go is tune on a nice 70 degree day. Look at your logs for any pinging. Tweak what needs to be tweaked. Get the bike running super smooth at 70 degrees. Then wait until 85 - 90 degree days come around and log again.

Basically, as a street tuner, you only have two things to consider. Is it pinging and how does it feel. If you can't feel any seat of the pants difference by reducing timing in the pinging cells, in the main table, then go ahead and do it. If you can feel a difference by reducing the main table a few degrees, which I doubt you will, put it back where it was. Then reduce the temp table.

Another thing to remember is that even .5 degree too much can trigger a 2 degree pull. So reduce timing by 1 degree at a time. When it stops pinging reduce it 2 or 3 more.