I know this topic has most likely been abused however I am new to the latest tuner and have a few questions.
1. I am told with the latest tuner that if using the phone app you can only pic pre populated maps and then not adjust any air fuel settings, but, if you hook the tuner up to a laptop and use the desktop software you can edit air / fuel settings to whatever you want. Is that correct?

2. If you can tune afm to what ever you want using the desktop software then aren't we out of epa compliance?

3.. My goal is to put on new slipons that do not have cats to kill some of the heat. Can Harley kill my warranty if my tuner is epa compliant but my mufflers are not?

i have never had to worry about epa in all of my other bikes until I purchased my first new bike...

 

Your warranty is spelled out in your owner’s manual.

 

Having a tuner that would tune outside of EPA compliance, is what caused the entire "Consent Decree" fiasco, that changed forever how the MoCo handles warranty claims.

I have never used the Harley tuner, neither the older version or the new post "Consent Decree" version.... If I am wrong, I will be corrected...

However, it is my understanding the new tuner will allow minor adjustments, but WILL NOT allow you to adjust a tune to be outside of EPA compliance.

As mentioned by GalvTexGuy above, Factory Warranty is spelled out in writing. You need to read the "Exclusions" and "Other Limitations" sections.

These are excerpts from a 2022 Factory Warranty:


"No person, including Harley-Davidson dealers, may modify,
extend or waive any part of this warranty. As a condition of
his warranty, you are responsible for properly using,
maintaining, and caring for your motorcycle as outlined in
your Owner’s Manual. Harley-Davidson recommends that you
maintain copies of all maintenance records and receipts."


Under "Exclusions":

"Which is not equipped to comply with the laws of the
market in which it is registered."

"Which has off-road parts or competition parts installed to
enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other
unapproved modifications (even if these modifications
include genuine Harley-Davidson® parts and accessories
that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These
modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle
limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson
dealer for details."


This is under "Other Limitations"

"Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by
alterations outside of Harley-Davidson factory
specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or
accessories not approved for the make and model year
of your motorcycle."

"Upgraded parts are not allowed as a warranty
replacement. The limited warranty allows for repair or
replacement of failed parts to put the vehicle, component
or part back to its original condition with factory supplied
materials and as delivered. We will take all steps to
repair/replace the part to make it correct for the customer.
This does not include upgrades to parts - unless no other
suitable component is available as a direct replacement."


This is where you can get the full text:

"Download this and other documents free of charge at https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com."

 

The current HD Screaming Eagle tuner only has canned EPA tunes for CAT equipped bikes. Any bike without a CAT would be noncompliant, and violate HD’s agreement with the EPA, so the HD tuner will not allow you to alter AFR yourself - canned tunes only.
You will need a DynoJet tuner to accomplish what you want.

 

Hey thanks for the posts. I have already read the warranty, magnusin moss, EPA notice to Harley. Based on that and what you posted it seems the following is true.

1. I can use any slipon muffler I want as long as it is EPA certified.
2. If for example I have V&E slipons with an SE air cleaner my tuner will only tune this to EPA standards and not to the best performance AF mix.
3. Harley can only void my warranty using the V&H slipons if they can prove that the slipons are what caused the issue.

Does this seem right to you?

 

I hate these discussions, because what CAN happen is not always what WILL happen.... but, knowledge is power...

The MM Act only affects a manufacturer that requires a certain BRAND of oil, filter, battery, etc to maintain a warranty. Harley can't say you NEED to use THEIR oil, filters, plugs, etc for your warranty to remain in effect.

Manufacturers are allowed to require certain specifications for oil & parts. As long as the oil & parts you use meet any published specifications by Harley, or required of Harley (like EPA), then HD would have to prove that oil &/or part caused damage to avoid a warranty claim.

As soon as parts change performance from OEM specifications, they are considered power enhancing and they are not covered under the MM Act. As soon a part functions outside of OEM specifications (which require EPA legal tunes, air intakes, and exhausts), it COULD void parts of, or the entire powertrain warranty.

So if your V&H slip-ons are not 50 state, EPA legal slip-on mufflers, they COULD void the warranty...

These rules for the most part have always been in the warranty since I've been buying HDs in the 70's. However, Harley didn't care too much, as it helped to sell bikes. They even jumped into the fray, with their older HD tuner, to share in some of the aftermarket modification money being made off their bikes...

They got caught by EPA, and entered an agreement to mitigate the amount of the fine. That's when the MoCo started having dealers send info on bike engine warranty claims though the HD digital tech computer... they were required to check tunes on warranty claims and report their findings to the EPA..

After the consent decree, HD again got slapped by a lawsuit. This time dealers were telling customers they needed to use HD products and parts to maintain their warranties. That is in direct violation of the MM Act. So HD got slapped again. This just shows what some dealers are willing to say (lie about) to make $$$$.

Bottom line, there are many dealers who only care about $$$$$. They will say whatever they think they need to say to sell a bike, and to make $$$ on it's service.

So, a consumer needs to be educated on what is actually written in the HD Factory Warranty. That is what is (or is not) legally covered. No dealer can change that. But dealers do have some power in reporting violations that they visually observe, and are not captured by the HD Digital Tech computer.

What one dealer may let slide, another may not... you are only guaranteed warranty coverage if you follow the written warranty.

If you were to have a major engine warranty claim, and it goes above the dealer level to a MoCo representative, don't expect a free pass... A non-compliant muffler would give the MoCo a reason to deny the claim..

It's not all doom and gloom, just know that if you play, and play outside the rules, it is possible it could cost you until the warranty is over.

Personally, I modified my 1980 FXS two months after purchase, knowing full well I might have to pay if I had a major engine claim under warranty... I was willing to take that chance. I have also taken that chance on a couple new HD bikes since then. So far I have not had a warranty issue... Damn, I guess I'm due..

I hope this info helps...

 

Put a sidecar on the 2020 RGL at 495 miles . Warranty was voided bump to bumper. That is ok it is my bike not Harley's.

 

Yes, you mostly have it right. Two small things:

1) Harley cannot void the warranty just because you put EPA-compliant mufflers on. However, that doesn't mean they won't. Meaning, in the real world, they can do whatever they want and if you don't have the money to sue them, then they get away with it. That's why folks like us are hesitant to endorse a statement like your "Harley can only void my warranty..." one. I believe the odds are extremely low that you would have a warranty conflict if you used EPA-compliant mufflers; I think the risk of having a problem is miniscule, but "never say never". If everyone complied by their contracts, we wouldn't have lawyers and courts, but we do.

2) the SE tuner does allow you to modify the fuel map and make adjustments to the VE tables, and it does have an automatic learning feature where you can run several learning sessions to refine the map automatically. A professional dyno tuner could use the SE tuner to adjust your VE tables to the most optimal state that the tuner will allow (but you'll have a tough time finding any pro dyno tuner who will use the SE tuner, unless they're working in a Harley dealership). So you're not just stuck with a canned map. However, the amount of adjustability the SE tuner allows is limited to keeping things within EPA-approved levels. If it so happens that the adjustments that your particular modifications need to run optimally also happen to be within the SE tuner's range, then yes the SE tuner could tune your bike to run optimally in that scenario. Pretty unlikely, but possible. If you're using mods that are not EPA-legal, it is unlikely that the SE tuner's adjustability will be sufficient to provide an optimum tune for that level of equipment.

If all you're changing is going to a Stage 1, an SE tuner may be sufficient, especially since manufacturers like V&H and S&S are now offering performance-upgrade pipes and mufflers that are EPA-compliant. And the SE tuner is pretty much the only tuner out there that won't void your powertrain components warranty.

If you want to adjust ignition timing or employ other advanced tuning techniques, the SE tuner just doesn't do that. It downloads canned maps, it lets you edit and modify the VE tables within certain restrictions, and it lets you run learning sessions to automatically adapt the VE tables to be the most efficient for your particular equipment (up to the limits of what the EPA allows and no further). Aftermarket tuners like the PowerVision or TTS offer much more capability and control and can handle many more upgrades like aftermarket big bore kits and camshafts, but flashing your bike with an aftermarket non-EPA-compliant tuner is an automatic warranty voider (for powertrain components).