Battery
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
From: Huntington Beach
Thats definitely not right!
Three possibilities come to mind:
1) Bad battery, plates have sulfated and the battery has no shelf life to speak of.
Disconnect the battery and charge it, then let it sit disconnected. If it’s fully charged, it should go a number of days and still crank your scooter over with no problem. If not, replace the battery. Someone cautioned against 'quick' charging....good advice.
2) Charging system not working properly.
Check voltage while running bike above idle, voltage should be >13.8
3) An electrical load is remaining on with ignition turned off, or a short.
This can be a difficult one to troubleshoot. If (1) & (2) are okay then this becomes suspect. There was a prior post that mentioned pinched wires under the seat, do a visual for things like that. Otherwise, it’s going to take a volt/ohm meter to find the problem.
Hope this helps!
Three possibilities come to mind:
1) Bad battery, plates have sulfated and the battery has no shelf life to speak of.
Disconnect the battery and charge it, then let it sit disconnected. If it’s fully charged, it should go a number of days and still crank your scooter over with no problem. If not, replace the battery. Someone cautioned against 'quick' charging....good advice.
2) Charging system not working properly.
Check voltage while running bike above idle, voltage should be >13.8
3) An electrical load is remaining on with ignition turned off, or a short.
This can be a difficult one to troubleshoot. If (1) & (2) are okay then this becomes suspect. There was a prior post that mentioned pinched wires under the seat, do a visual for things like that. Otherwise, it’s going to take a volt/ohm meter to find the problem.
Hope this helps!
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,384
Likes: 251
From: Southern California
First the easy stuff:
A.) I doubt that your battery is "Sulfated" as that would require that the battery remain in a deeply discharged state (Less than 50% State of Charge) for a minimum of 60 days or more. It doesn't sound from the tone of your post that this is the case. In any event, a "Sulfated" battery will not loose a charge. It will be very difficult to charge if it does become discharged. Once charged a "Sulfated" battery will apear to be OK if the bike fires within the first few seconds that the starter motor is cranking the engine. If it takes any more that a few seconds for the motor to lite off, the battery will seem to go nearly dead. But if you wait 5 or 10 minutes the battery will seem to miraculously become recharged and will give you normal performance again, although only for a few seconds.
B.) The Fuel Injection Computer and the Electronic Speedometer on your motorcycle both draw a constant current. This is called a parasitic load and it is normal. Typically this should not exceed 35/1,000 ths of an ampere (0.035 Amps or said another way 35 milliamperes). However, if the bike is left unridden for several months the cumulative effect over time can draw down a perfectly good battery.
C.) If the bike is started and then run for fairly brief periods of time, the charging system will not have time to replace the electrical power that was consumed by the starter motor when you started the bike. Done occasionally this is not a problem, but done frequently (particularly along with item "B" above) the result will be a discharged battery over the course of time.
Batteries typically fail one of three ways:
1.) Vibration (Duh it's a Harley) due to not being secured as designed. Bungee Cords, Coat Hangers, Rope, etc. do not constitute securing a battery. Unsecured batteries have a life span that is usually only 1/5 (20%) of their normal life. Vibration doen't usually break any of the internal battery connections. What it does; is it causes the discharged lead to be shed from the battery plates before the charging system can restore them to their charged state. Eventually, after enough lead has been shed, there are no more battery plates. Because the charging and discharging process is not 100% efficient all batteries eventually fail because some discharged lead is shed and can not be recharged . . . but vibration speeds up the process considerably.
2.) Internal short. First, battery plates are arranged +/-/+/-/+/- Second, there is an insulating separator between every + and - plate. Third, battery plates are made of a grid (like a wire mesh) that the Lead of the battery plate is attached to. If one of the wires in the grid is bent or damaged during the manufacturing process, the bent wire will eventually wear through (vibration again accelerates this) the separator and touch the plate next to it thus "Shorting" the cell. This process can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few years. There are other ways that the plates can become shorted, Treeing, Mossing, and depending on how the battery is constructed a sufficient accumulation of the discahrged lead that has been shed from the plates can build up in the bottom of the battery so that it contacts the bottoms of the plates and shorts the plates out across the bottom. But if there is that much material shed in the bottom of the battery there isn't much left on the plates so it's time for a new battery anyway. To diagnose a shorted cell: 1.) Go buy one of those $5 Digital Volt Meters at Radio Shack or Wally World. For our purposes they are more than accurate enough. 2.) Charge the battery completely. 3.) Allow the battery to sit for at least 12 hours without doing anything to it (and in particular do not charge it any more or start the bike). 4.) After 12 hours of sitting read the battery voltage. If it's not at least 12.5 Volts the battery has a shorted cell. In all likelihood, if it's a shorted cell it'll be around 10 or 11 volts.
System Failures:
Charging system failure. With the bike running at 3,000 RPM the Battery Voltage should be between 13.5 and 15.5 volts depending on the temperature of the voltage regulator. Less than 13.5 volts and there is a problem in the charging system. Sometime in the past I posted how to diagnose a Charging system so you should be able to find that.
Excessive parasitic draw:
If there is a short somewhere on the bike that is draining the battery there is a real easy way to diagnose this. 1.) Disconnect the Battery Ground Cable(s) fron the Battery so that there are NO wires touching the Negative Terminal of the Battery. 2.) Make sure everything is turned off! (Very Important). 3.) Connect a test light between the Battery Negative Terminal and the disconnected Negative Battery Cable. If the test light glows, even so faintly so that you have to cup your hands around it to see it, there is a parasitic draw. No light = no excessive parasitic draw. (This is because it takes a little bit more than about 35 milliamperes to make a test light filament glow.) Pull each fuse one at a time until the Test light goes out to isolate the circuit causing the short. If all the fuses are pulled and the test light is still illuminated (even faintly) then you have a shorted diode in the voltage regulator.
A.) I doubt that your battery is "Sulfated" as that would require that the battery remain in a deeply discharged state (Less than 50% State of Charge) for a minimum of 60 days or more. It doesn't sound from the tone of your post that this is the case. In any event, a "Sulfated" battery will not loose a charge. It will be very difficult to charge if it does become discharged. Once charged a "Sulfated" battery will apear to be OK if the bike fires within the first few seconds that the starter motor is cranking the engine. If it takes any more that a few seconds for the motor to lite off, the battery will seem to go nearly dead. But if you wait 5 or 10 minutes the battery will seem to miraculously become recharged and will give you normal performance again, although only for a few seconds.
B.) The Fuel Injection Computer and the Electronic Speedometer on your motorcycle both draw a constant current. This is called a parasitic load and it is normal. Typically this should not exceed 35/1,000 ths of an ampere (0.035 Amps or said another way 35 milliamperes). However, if the bike is left unridden for several months the cumulative effect over time can draw down a perfectly good battery.
C.) If the bike is started and then run for fairly brief periods of time, the charging system will not have time to replace the electrical power that was consumed by the starter motor when you started the bike. Done occasionally this is not a problem, but done frequently (particularly along with item "B" above) the result will be a discharged battery over the course of time.
Batteries typically fail one of three ways:
1.) Vibration (Duh it's a Harley) due to not being secured as designed. Bungee Cords, Coat Hangers, Rope, etc. do not constitute securing a battery. Unsecured batteries have a life span that is usually only 1/5 (20%) of their normal life. Vibration doen't usually break any of the internal battery connections. What it does; is it causes the discharged lead to be shed from the battery plates before the charging system can restore them to their charged state. Eventually, after enough lead has been shed, there are no more battery plates. Because the charging and discharging process is not 100% efficient all batteries eventually fail because some discharged lead is shed and can not be recharged . . . but vibration speeds up the process considerably.
2.) Internal short. First, battery plates are arranged +/-/+/-/+/- Second, there is an insulating separator between every + and - plate. Third, battery plates are made of a grid (like a wire mesh) that the Lead of the battery plate is attached to. If one of the wires in the grid is bent or damaged during the manufacturing process, the bent wire will eventually wear through (vibration again accelerates this) the separator and touch the plate next to it thus "Shorting" the cell. This process can take anywhere from a few weeks to a few years. There are other ways that the plates can become shorted, Treeing, Mossing, and depending on how the battery is constructed a sufficient accumulation of the discahrged lead that has been shed from the plates can build up in the bottom of the battery so that it contacts the bottoms of the plates and shorts the plates out across the bottom. But if there is that much material shed in the bottom of the battery there isn't much left on the plates so it's time for a new battery anyway. To diagnose a shorted cell: 1.) Go buy one of those $5 Digital Volt Meters at Radio Shack or Wally World. For our purposes they are more than accurate enough. 2.) Charge the battery completely. 3.) Allow the battery to sit for at least 12 hours without doing anything to it (and in particular do not charge it any more or start the bike). 4.) After 12 hours of sitting read the battery voltage. If it's not at least 12.5 Volts the battery has a shorted cell. In all likelihood, if it's a shorted cell it'll be around 10 or 11 volts.
System Failures:
Charging system failure. With the bike running at 3,000 RPM the Battery Voltage should be between 13.5 and 15.5 volts depending on the temperature of the voltage regulator. Less than 13.5 volts and there is a problem in the charging system. Sometime in the past I posted how to diagnose a Charging system so you should be able to find that.
Excessive parasitic draw:
If there is a short somewhere on the bike that is draining the battery there is a real easy way to diagnose this. 1.) Disconnect the Battery Ground Cable(s) fron the Battery so that there are NO wires touching the Negative Terminal of the Battery. 2.) Make sure everything is turned off! (Very Important). 3.) Connect a test light between the Battery Negative Terminal and the disconnected Negative Battery Cable. If the test light glows, even so faintly so that you have to cup your hands around it to see it, there is a parasitic draw. No light = no excessive parasitic draw. (This is because it takes a little bit more than about 35 milliamperes to make a test light filament glow.) Pull each fuse one at a time until the Test light goes out to isolate the circuit causing the short. If all the fuses are pulled and the test light is still illuminated (even faintly) then you have a shorted diode in the voltage regulator.
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
From: Huntington Beach
First the easy stuff:
A.) I doubt that your battery is "Sulfated" as that would require that the battery remain in a deeply discharged state (Less than 50% State of Charge) for a minimum of 60 days or more. It doesn't sound from the tone of your post that this is the case. In any event, a "Sulfated" battery will not loose a charge. It will be very difficult to charge if it does become discharged. Once charged a "Sulfated" battery will apear to be OK if the bike fires within the first few seconds that the starter motor is cranking the engine. If it takes any more that a few seconds for the motor to lite off, the battery will seem to go nearly dead. But if you wait 5 or 10 minutes the battery will seem to miraculously become recharged and will give you normal performance again, although only for a few seconds.
A.) I doubt that your battery is "Sulfated" as that would require that the battery remain in a deeply discharged state (Less than 50% State of Charge) for a minimum of 60 days or more. It doesn't sound from the tone of your post that this is the case. In any event, a "Sulfated" battery will not loose a charge. It will be very difficult to charge if it does become discharged. Once charged a "Sulfated" battery will apear to be OK if the bike fires within the first few seconds that the starter motor is cranking the engine. If it takes any more that a few seconds for the motor to lite off, the battery will seem to go nearly dead. But if you wait 5 or 10 minutes the battery will seem to miraculously become recharged and will give you normal performance again, although only for a few seconds.
There is some pretty good battery info here:
http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html#8
and here too!
http://www.batteryfaq.org/
Last edited by 1hellbent; Nov 4, 2010 at 09:38 AM. Reason: spacing
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
From: Huntington Beach
Tips on buying a new battery:
Stick with either AGM (absorbed glass mat) or gel cell technology versus a conventional wet battery, they are far superior in a vibration application, especially the AGM. Although I’m not sure anyone is still making a wet motorcycle battery anymore.
When comparing batteries, pay particular attention to CCA (cold crank amps) versus reserve capacity. Generally, there is a trade off, if you want higher CCA the battery is going to have a lower reserve capacity rating and vise versa. A higher CCA is going to be better for starting applications, a higher reserve capacity is better for smaller cycling applications. An example: I have a boat with dual batteries and a battery selector switch. Battery #1 has a high CCA, I use that for the engine. I switch to battery #2 when the engine is off and I am sitting in a cove nursing a beer with the stereo cranked up for hours. For the scooter, I would pay more attention to CCA. The other thing to compare is weight, the heavier the battery is, the more lead and active material it has. Don’t use that alone to judge though, it still has to be a quality construction. But if you have two different batteries both claiming similar CCA and one is 20% lighter, you need to be suspicious of someone’s rating.
Find a dealer that sells a lot of batteries. You will better your odds that you won’t get one that’s been on the shelf for a while. Most dealers are not going to monitor their inventory and do a maintenance charge on batteries that have been there a while. Remember, once a battery drops below that 12.4 voltage, it’s subject to start sulfating. See if you can identify the manufacturing date. This may not be the same as the date that they put on the label, indicating when it was sold, those are designed for warranties. I was in the Gelled lead-acid battery industry for many years back in the 80’s and 90’s. I can’t tell you how often we got back bad batteries under warranty claims that where the buyer had it only maybe a year, but our date code on the bottom of the case indicated that it was a 2 year old battery. That obviously means that it had been sitting on some dealer’s shelf for a long time. Be particularly cautious when buying a battery (also car batteries), if they say: “We need to charge it first because it’s not fully charged”. Have them show you the voltage first before they charge it, it its below 12.4, then you need to inquire why and for how long.
Hope this helps.
Stick with either AGM (absorbed glass mat) or gel cell technology versus a conventional wet battery, they are far superior in a vibration application, especially the AGM. Although I’m not sure anyone is still making a wet motorcycle battery anymore.
When comparing batteries, pay particular attention to CCA (cold crank amps) versus reserve capacity. Generally, there is a trade off, if you want higher CCA the battery is going to have a lower reserve capacity rating and vise versa. A higher CCA is going to be better for starting applications, a higher reserve capacity is better for smaller cycling applications. An example: I have a boat with dual batteries and a battery selector switch. Battery #1 has a high CCA, I use that for the engine. I switch to battery #2 when the engine is off and I am sitting in a cove nursing a beer with the stereo cranked up for hours. For the scooter, I would pay more attention to CCA. The other thing to compare is weight, the heavier the battery is, the more lead and active material it has. Don’t use that alone to judge though, it still has to be a quality construction. But if you have two different batteries both claiming similar CCA and one is 20% lighter, you need to be suspicious of someone’s rating.
Find a dealer that sells a lot of batteries. You will better your odds that you won’t get one that’s been on the shelf for a while. Most dealers are not going to monitor their inventory and do a maintenance charge on batteries that have been there a while. Remember, once a battery drops below that 12.4 voltage, it’s subject to start sulfating. See if you can identify the manufacturing date. This may not be the same as the date that they put on the label, indicating when it was sold, those are designed for warranties. I was in the Gelled lead-acid battery industry for many years back in the 80’s and 90’s. I can’t tell you how often we got back bad batteries under warranty claims that where the buyer had it only maybe a year, but our date code on the bottom of the case indicated that it was a 2 year old battery. That obviously means that it had been sitting on some dealer’s shelf for a long time. Be particularly cautious when buying a battery (also car batteries), if they say: “We need to charge it first because it’s not fully charged”. Have them show you the voltage first before they charge it, it its below 12.4, then you need to inquire why and for how long.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by 1hellbent; Nov 4, 2010 at 01:41 PM.
Stage II
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From:
He asked for battery recommendations for a replacement. No one answered that.
I tried an aftermarket battery from Batteries Plus. The bike wouldn't start, drove me crazy trying to find an electrical issue in the starter circuit. A wise old man told me to load test the 'new' battery. It had a bad cell and dropped to 6 volts under load. I took it back, then went back to an H-D OEM battery and haven't a had a problem since.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,172
Likes: 7
From: Clermont, GA, CSA
I've had both aftermarket and batteries I've bought at HD dealers. I don't know what the difference is, but the HD batteries last much longer.
The last one I bought was for my '93 Sportster in 2002. It was still cranking my bike fine when the bike died in 2009!
The last one I bought was for my '93 Sportster in 2002. It was still cranking my bike fine when the bike died in 2009!
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,068
Likes: 1,471
From: Texas! Ya mean there's someplace else?
Lots of good advice. And this is one area (battery) where the stock HD batteries are primo quality. While the law of averages says that an occasional bad one will slip past the OEM QC, it is the very rare exception.
