So I run a stage 2 103" with Andrews 57H cams, 2.5" baffles, and an S&S Hi Flo intake. Has anyone tried to fool the fuelpak by removing the O2's, and running the setup as a 110"? If you could get past the EPA garbage and run in open loop you could Really Tune your bike........just wondering if anyone has made an attempt to fool the fp3 yet? Narrow Band tuning is very restrictive, so much so that it seems pointless to tune AFR within a 10 tenth window.....

 

Well, I can speak from experience in this regard.
I would quit with the fp3 and upgrade to a real tuner such as TTS or P/V and get to a competent tuner who uses them.
The difference between a "fooled" system and one operating at it full capability, is not comparable.
You've spent some $$ on the parts, now don't skimp on tuning, for it is tuning that brings all the parts together by developing a proper calibration for your exact build and its variances.
Bob

 

There are some obvious question in there that are nothing to do with the FP3 particularly

...but having said that - if your AFR table is all richer than 14.35 then there will not be any closed loop area for the sensors to control. You could also try setting the Closed-loop range settings to Low=14.9 and High=14.9

FP3 does not reveal the Closed-loop on/off switch that the Power Vision does for example.

You can also set the CI to 110 from 103 ...but I have no idea what you are trying to do here? ...has it been tuned already?? ...how are you planning to tune it??

I second FLTRI15's experience.

 

V&H sent me a tune........and don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the the effort Cheyne put in to the map. However, there's a first gear major hesitation after warmup from low rpm's....which is dangerous for all of the obvious reasons. The other is richness/fuel economy. My last tank was at 31mpg. Plugs look a little rich, but no where close to fouling due to this condition.
I'm going to take a stab at an Auto Tune as my last resort for the fp3. The question regarding open loop tuning would give me much more control over the AFR tables across the spectrum. If no one has attempted it, I certainly don't want to be the test subject.
Here's my big beef with the fp3, according to what I'm reading here and elsewhere, once you marry the fp3 to a VIN that's it. No deleting a bike and passing on the tuner to another who could possibly benefit with a Stage 1 setup. If that's the case, and I believe it is, shame on me for not investigating the fp3 more thoroughly.
There could very well be a happy ending to this story if the Auto-Tune sessions work as well as I've read. The fact that V&H has the ability to update the software so all can benefit is also a good thing. At the end of the day, I still have work to do before final judgement on the fp3.

 

OK we've had this one before but most all of the flash tuners marry themselves to the bike. Some you can buy a second license some as many as you need but essentially you are paying extra for each bike ...and you only have one device so if it breaks...

Anyhoo, the other thing is this debate about canned maps being any good or not. My take from the general consensus of the Pro's is that a canned map is nothing more than a base or starter map ...that you really need to autotune to your own bike/build. And the V&H are no different.

V&H are confusing, sometimes they say not to autotune and others they say you have to. Read their own FAQ and they tell you that if you change the cam settings then you have to autotune. They only seem to have stage 1 maps (maybe I'm wrong on that but I had hellish trouble trying to get my 57H to work).

Open loop tuning I have no idea what you mean but if you autotune with the stock narrowband that will set the whole AFR table to closed loop, calculate the new VE all across the table, then it puts the AFR table back to open/closed loop ...and you can then set whatever you want in your own AFR table ...fully open loop if you want I suppose

Plenty people run a fully open loop config for whatever reason I suppose, the FP3 would be no different

 

I reached out to V&H yesterday, the reply has me anxious to go through a few Auto Tune sessions to dial in the tune. As for the 57H map, the tune that V&H worked up for me is working aside from the lower fuel mileage and the hesitation in 1st after warmup. Cheyne from V&H is confident the Auto Tune will solve these problems. I'm going to give it a go this weekend.

Along with my e-mail yesterday I asked about closed loop tuning and it's inability to alter AFR outside the 14.0-15.0 range. Here is his reply:

"The FP3 uses an algorithm to interpret the data from the narrow band and allow for larger changes. We can go plus or minus 15% either way per 'apply' when in Autotune. As far as bumping the displacement to 110, this would essentially multiply the entire map - we are of the opinion that this is unnecessary and would deliver too much fuel."


I'm not going to pass final judgement until I go through at least 3 Auto Tune sessions. Will follow up.........

 

When you run the autotune feature, it sets your whole AFR table to closed-loop, so that the O2 sensors can see how much fuel is being burnt and work out what the volumetric efficiency is for that part of the VE table.

What V&H are basically telling you is to do at least 3 or 4 autotunes and Apply (or Finish) between each one.

The point being the autotune process can only change the VE by a maximum of 15% each time.

So, for example, if your current VE is 80 in a cell but the new number (because of the changes to the engine) needs to be 97 - the first autotune can only change it to 80+15% = 92. It would take at least a second autotune to get it to 97.

This sets up your VE tables properly (cough) AND THEN you can set your AFR table to however much fuel you think you want to chuck in

I still don't think we know why you think you need to increase the CI from 103 to 110 ?? (Its not like a carb and just chucking in a bigger jet)

Or what you mean by "open loop tuning" ...what are you trying to do, or what are you thinking about? ...exactly??

 

The suggestion to go to 110" came from another location on the web. Either way, sounds like the Auto Tune may be exactly what's needed. Thanks for chiming in, I'm going to give it a go.........Thanks

 

My ultimate goal is to get the best tune possible for my 103. My thought was to bypass the narrow band O2's in hopes of having much more control over my AFP. But to be honest, I've really been overthinking this. I'm going to give the Auto Tune a chance to tweak what I currently have. The bike has a minor hesitation from a stop after warmup, and I'm definitely a little rich. But I would rather tune from rich than lean for sure......

 

Nothing wrong with changing the AFR/lambda desired to what you want, but you must have a way of measuring the AFR result in the exhaust, so you can accurately calibrate the VE tables.
First calibrate the VE tables: AFR measured in the exhaust should equal AFR requested at any given throttle position or MAP load. If the AFR measured is richer than AFR requested, decrease the VE at that spot. If AFR measured is leaner than requested, increase the VE number in the corresponding cell. ie: 02F sensor reports 12.5 @ 2500 RPM/40 KPA, 02R reports 12.7; the VE table has an 100 at that spot in the front table, and 106 in the rear table. Checking the main AFR/lambda table, it shows a request of .977 (14.3). 12.5 is ~1.8 richer than requested, so you'd reduce VEF to 87, rear 12.7 is 1.6 richer, so drop VER to 94. Do these measurements/calculation for every RPM/throttle position/MAP load, both cylinders, then save, flash, and retest. Continue this process until the VE table is within 1-2% everywhere. At this point, VE tables are calibrated, and tuning for best power/proper timing/driveability can start.
Or you can buy a TTS, use flight recorder, and let the hardware/software do all the math for you.
HTH
Robin