closed loop but needs a map?
Thread Starter
|
Novice
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 21
Likes: 1
closed loop but needs a map?
I keep seeing this over & over but maps are open loop, wideband o2 sensors are limited and slow to respond the way I understand it, and the power commander still looks like the best bang for your $. I dont think a true closed loop feedback system exists, but rather a limited closed loop. Do I have this right?
Road Master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,196
Likes: 14
From: connecticut
I keep seeing this over & over but maps are open loop, wideband o2 sensors are limited and slow to respond the way I understand it, and the power commander still looks like the best bang for your $. I dont think a true closed loop feedback system exists, but rather a limited closed loop. Do I have this right?
I am not selling these tuners or work for tts. i just think they are the best on the market right now for 07 and newer bikes.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
I keep seeing this over & over but maps are open loop, wideband o2 sensors are limited and slow to respond the way I understand it, and the power commander still looks like the best bang for your $. I dont think a true closed loop feedback system exists, but rather a limited closed loop. Do I have this right?
I have no experience with the T'Max, but I can attest that the PCV-AT works very well. You don't need a correct map to begin with, as you can create your own custom base map by developing the trim tables and then "accepting" those trims. Or, just start with any map and let AT tune on the fly. There's no need to accept trims at any time unless you are creating a base map for a singular purpose, like to utilize a map switch. With the PCV-AT you can create a rich base map and switch between it (open-loop) for better cooling and apply leaner target AFR's (closed-loop) for better gas mileage.
Call Fuel Moto for more info, as they sell both of these tuners and others.
Last edited by iclick; May 27, 2010 at 04:01 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 130
From: Now Western TN
iclick, is there any reason you couldn't configure it the other way, Open-loop for your mileage map and close loop it for performance? Wondering if one way works better than the other?
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
You could reverse the order as you suggested, but I would rather have the precision of auto-tuning active most of the time when I'm trying to get good mileage, yet be able to switch to the rich base map (open-loop) only when I need extra cooling, like in heavy summer traffic. When I'm running 13.5:1 with the base map (open-loop, no AT) I can't tell the difference in part-throttle performance or throttle response when I switch to closed-loop where I'm running 14.5-14.6 in the cruise range.
Now that I have access to CHT data while riding (head-temp gauge) I'll be doing some tests to see exactly how much difference there is between running 13.5 and 14.5 AFRs by flipping the map switch on a long ride.
Last edited by iclick; May 28, 2010 at 10:43 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 130
From: Now Western TN
Thanks!
Trending Topics
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
First, the way I've set mine up isn't as a compromise between mileage and performance, but rather mileage and cooling. You can have both mileage and performance in one map by earmarking the cruise range for lean-running and let the target AFRs go progressively richer as you roll-on the throttle. Where the cooling comes in is making the cruise-range rich in the low-end of the base map (open-loop), and that hurts mileage. My base map was created with rich AFRs in the cruise range (13.5:1), but I did not change them above 40% throttle position. That means it runs lean in the cruise range while in closed-loop but transitions into rich territory up to 13:1 @ 80% throttle and above. I've change the Target AFRs in the cruise-range to 14.5-14.6 for better mileage. I did a long-winded write-up on this here where I went into detail on my concept of setting-up a map switch with Auto-Tune.
Last edited by iclick; May 28, 2010 at 10:46 AM.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Southpaw Super Glide: A Left-Hand-Drive 1979 Harley FXE Built to Fit the Rider
Verdad Gallardo
Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 130
From: Now Western TN
That means it runs lean in the cruise range while in closed-loop but transitions into rich territory up to 13:1 @ 80% throttle and above. I've change the Target AFRs in the cruise-range to 14.5-14.6 for better mileage. I did a long-winded write-up on this here where I went into detail on my concept of setting-up a map switch with Auto-Tune.
Thanks
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 50
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Go look at my write-up where I show both pairs of Target AFR tables, one to create the richer base map and the other for leaner AT that I run 99.9% of the time. Above 40% I used the same target AFR numbers that were in the original Fuel Moto map, as I wanted the roll-on performance to be optimal regardless of what mode I'm in. If I want good mileage I figure I need to behave myself and keep TP below 40%. That's not hard to do, as the bike doesn't need much throttle to accelerate rapidly enough for most situations, even passing. The SE255 cams help greatly in this regard.
The rich mode differs from the lean mode only at 40% TP and below, and the leanest AFRs only affect 5-15% TP. At 20-40% I've tapered it into the richer settings. Once you see the tables you'll see what I mean.
Last edited by iclick; May 28, 2010 at 12:03 PM.