Originally Posted by dohadex
All the Stg 1 download does is change the timing slightly ("torque smoothing") and returns the AFR back to the EPA mandated 14.6 AFR.
So basically, you're engine is running very lean, and is starving for fuel. If you don't want an EFI module...get the Nightriders like I did. Cost is about $100+ shipping, cools the engine, and gets the AFR down to 13.8 which is the "sweet" spot for most newer 96" motors.

Please remember..the dealer will try to sell you anything they can to appease you...but you're AFR will never change from 14.6 because of the EPA rules Harley is bound to.

I hope this helps...and good luck.



I've asked throughout various threads on these forums about how to maximize the potential of a stock 96 motor, and have gotten some helpful opinions, but I still have questions to help me better understand a 96 as a "keeper" instead of a barely tolerable default Harley powerplant that must be upgraded or replaced before any useful enjoyment ensues. Don't get me wrong...This is My Bike! I Love My Bike! There are many like it but this one is mine (referencing Full Metal Jacket.)

So I'll ask you folks who may know in terms of lift and duration, etc.a few questions: If, for example, the SE 255 is the drop in cam to shift the torque curve lower in the rev band, does the stock cam have a "market model number" like 255 or 204? How does the stock cam conspire with other EPA mandated components and settings in a stock 96 to give any kind of respectable spread of power to make anybody wanna buy a new Harley? What does the stock cam really do for you (or more importantly, HD to satisfy EPA regs?) What is the torque curve of the stock cam? Does the stock cam have any benefit over SE 255s or Andrews, et al in a stock 96, especially once AFR is sorted out via Nightrider, SERT, or PCV, and intake and exhaust, or should I just resolve to get the hell rid of said cam if I have hope of ever being happy with a 96? I'm not just bitching rhetoric, I'm looking for technical enlightenment.

Given how much parts and labor's involved to do a cam switch, intake, exhaust, fuel module leading to inevitable yearning for further upgrades, do I just save up and fast forward to a SE120R?

Thanks for any expert info you guys have.

John

 

I think you just answered your own question.

I spent all winter asking about cam upgrades and all I got were arguments between forum members about how their cam upgrade was the best and everybody else’s was stupid. Fight, fight, fight, name calling, rants, it got confusing and no help at all.

My local dealer wasn’t much better help either. Then the owner was listening in on all the discussion about this and that and he said why don’t you just put in the “SE 103 Stage IV kit” and be done with it. After 5 more months of indecision about what to do upgrade wise, I did the Stage IV kit. I am happy I did that now.

I am really happy after this happened: My buddy just did a cam and SEST upgrade (while he was having some surgery done) so I rode it home for him. It was an improvement yes, but no where near what my upgrade did. I am glad I went the extra upgrade. The cam wouldn’t have been enough. It would have been nice and definitely a needed upgrade, but I wanted some POP in the throttle.

I like the idea of the complete SE 120R motor upgrade. You could then sell your stock motor and help pay for a lot of it. In the end spend less than I did on mine maybe.
So I guess what I’m saying is: if you are even thinking about the SE 120R, wait for it.

 

...like a no-sh***er to me. SE120R ain't perfect from what I read here, but bad-*** is close enough to perfect for me if the bugs were worked out that some were complaining about.

I have really low miles on my engine. Who'd want to buy it thoretically?

 

WOW! Thats like a HUGE diffrence in $$!! Considering after the purchase price of the 120", you'll still need intake, exhaust & fuel module. I did do the 255 cams upgrade to my 96" a few months ago & it made a big diffrence but, now I am thinking 103" (10:1) with mild head work (Big Boyz) and either Andrews 54H or Woods 6-6 cams. Should put me somewhere around 100 HP & 100+ TQ.

 

I put a HQ500 cam in my 96" and it made a world of differance, I'm only going to add a set of ported heads and some .18 head gaskets to finish it. I live in Boise Id and you can go from the flat lands to climbing a goat hill in as little as 50 miles and the bike will do anything that is required of it now.
Comparing a stage1 plus a cam to a 120SE is not even close in performance or cost, those are 2 totally different animals for 2 totally different uses.

 

Will the gaskets raise static CR?

I know I'm asking real basic questions, but does polishing and porting the heads make the flow through the intake valve more laminar?

What should I expect to pay for a drop in cam job if I'm not getting hosed? I know I still gotta get fuel management and exhaust after installation.

 

How does the HQ 500 compare to the SE 255, 259, 204, Woods, Andrews in terms of torque/ power spread throughout the rev band? Did you have to change valve springs? Either way, sounds like like your bike's happy!

 

There's a weath of information on cams on this forum and others. It's a common topic, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why it becomes so contentious at times.

The stock cams in your 96 motor don't have a SEXXX number. They have a part number, like 25617-07A or 25589-07A. The reason a cam swap is such a popular upgrade is that it's a huge bang for the buck. The stock cams are designed to meet EPA requirements, and not to make peak power. If you look at the grind specs on the stock cams, you'll see that the exahust valve closes 8* before the intake valve opens. This is to ensure that no unburned fuel can escape along with the spent gasses. If you build in a little overlap, the exiting spent gasses can help pull in the new charge in a siphon type effect.

A simple thing like tightening up the lobe centers to build in a little overlap can significantly alter the performance of the motor. Beyond that, you need to target the rpm range you want your motor to make it's peak power. A high revving motor needs more duration, because as the motor spins faster, the valves open and close that much faster, leading to less time to fill the combustion chamber. You need to add duration, but add too much and you'll hurt low rpm performance by bleeding off compression. You need to close the intake valve after enough fuel has entered the chamber, so that the piston can compress the charge. The intake valve closes after the piston has passed the bottom of it's stroke and is on the way back up. Delay the intake closing for the sake of high rpm performance and you will hurt low rpm torque production unless you raise the static compression. It's a balancing act, and that's why a good engine builder will tell you the most important thing is to match componants.

Thinner head gaskets will increase static compression. The stock gasket is .045 thick. Change that to .030 will raise static compression a quarter point or so. The other thing it does is tighten up the combustion chamber a bit, which encourages a better burn.

There's a number of good bolt-in cams for your bike. If you're handy with a basic set of mechanics tools, you can easily do it yourself in a day. Pay a shop and it'll likely cost you 6 to 8 hours of shop time, at whatever the rate is in your area.

 

The .018 head gaskets will raise the compression to about 10-1 and will get your squish down to .030 where it's suppose to be.
If you do your cams in the dead of winter (like Feb) it's way cheaper, my dealer did mine for around $200 plus parts winter before last, I didn't think it was worth my time to do them when they could do so inexpensively.
The head porting increases overall flow rates and velocity and try's to get a better percentage of air flow between the exhaust and intake tracks.

 

Here's my chart, the bike pulls from off idle to the red line and the torque curve comes on right now and stays on till the end. No spring change and the bike sounds great to boot. If you want to compare something check out the price of some of these cams the HQ cams are very reasonably priced.